There is no need for me to begin this article by trying to convince readers that Lakewood has a problem with teens at risk, yidden using drugs, and people just bumming around. I believe that recent events as well as not so recent events in Lakewood have established this fact. I’d like to get right down to the point and remind readers of a possible solution to these problems that isn’t spoken of in publicly in Lakewood. College isn’t for everyone and it is definitely an option that needs to be discussed with personal rabbanim. However, I do believe that college is an option for some people. It is my opinion that one of the things that causes good Jews to fall into the wrong circles and feel like a failure is that they were brought up in the yeshivish system with no one willing to admit that the yeshivish system wasn’t for them. Not everyone is meant to learn 24/7 and not everyone can. (Read more)
Tuesday, August 11, 2009
The Unspoken Option-By Avi Solomon
There is no need for me to begin this article by trying to convince readers that Lakewood has a problem with teens at risk, yidden using drugs, and people just bumming around. I believe that recent events as well as not so recent events in Lakewood have established this fact. I’d like to get right down to the point and remind readers of a possible solution to these problems that isn’t spoken of in publicly in Lakewood. College isn’t for everyone and it is definitely an option that needs to be discussed with personal rabbanim. However, I do believe that college is an option for some people. It is my opinion that one of the things that causes good Jews to fall into the wrong circles and feel like a failure is that they were brought up in the yeshivish system with no one willing to admit that the yeshivish system wasn’t for them. Not everyone is meant to learn 24/7 and not everyone can. (Read more)
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28 comments:
Nobody needs to or wants to hear about college in Lakewood Ir Hakodesh. Avi preach your krumkite elsewhere.
ayyyyyyyy R' Aron said nobody should go to college? (bitmiya)
i have nothing against college but your wrong on this point. kids at risk just want to hang out they are not interested in sitting in class, Jewish or not, maybe they'll take a day job if your lucky
To the above comments - authors of which most obviously never attended college - if you insist on posting your opinion with your head so far up somewhere not tznius, please spell check. The author of this article, however inarticulate himself, is, in my opinion, correct in thinking that the Yeshiva system is not for everyone. No, anyone who falls through the cracks may not succeed or intend to succeed in a college environment, but there are more opportunities to life than creating an anti-semite of the person you cut off trying to make it on time to Yeshiva with your black hat dangling out of the window.
As a former BMG kollel yungerman with a Masters degree, I must comment that the problems mentioned are real. However, there are two problems with the solution: 1. as anonymous 8:32 pointed out, college is not a cure-all. 2. College presents many nisyonos - i will venture to guess that the author is a tamim and thus didn't have to grapple with these issues, but there becomes a catch-22 for some, as they are not being matzliach in yeshiva, but would not be able to stand the nisyonos college may present. For some, it is better to "bum out" in yeshiva than go to college.
In summation, we have a Torah and we have rabbanim who have the Torah way of thinking. THEY should be carefully consulted before any decision like this. And, yes, Rabbi Solomon can provide them with some info. regarding registration.
Rabbi Solomon, good points, but you should not be an arbiter of this issue until Torah is such a part of you that your advice is the Torah's advice.
BTW, for those thinking about going to college BMG provides a BTS, not a BTL - important to know when making inquiries regarding college.
Bottom Line: G-d has been doing a wonderful job running the world for the last 5769+ years and providing parnassa mkarnei reamim ad beitzei kinim. he does not need you to go to college to get a parnassah to you, unless that is part and parcel of hishtadlus. is it? ask someone whose advice is the advice of the Torah.
Avi, it's not just teens at risk. I am a yungerman, and I am plotzing from lack of parnassah, and I can't get a good job because I never got a degree. (I'm not the developer/investor/business type) I need a regular 9 - 5 job, and they won't pay enough to support my family w/o a degree.
Sometimes I feel that my parents and rabbeim have failed me by not pushing me to take courses. The Gemara says that a father who doesn't teach his son a trade teaches him how to rob.
Which is exactly what I do. I rob the gov't every day......
About point 2 - nisyonos - go to Touro
Avi u may have a good point but the Rosh hayeshiva was totally against it in his days can u just imagine our days but there are other yeshivous that allow their talmidim to attend so maybe lakewood isint for all
I did not and bh I am making parnassa
Touro is a "kosher chazer fissel "u prob better off going to secular collage then one with "a jewish theme" look at what moron rashcbhag rav shach ztvkl wrote in regarding "touro " lest we forget
Yes, Yes, Yes.
As Avi says, college is not for everyone, but neither is long term, full time learning. The fact that more and more people are learning is wonderful. The fact that now everyone thinks he has to learn long term is not wonderful. No one way of life is for everyone. THe fact that we all live cookie cutter lives is NOT GOOD! Each person must make a decision for HIMSELF--Some should learn, some should go to work and yes, some should go to college, If they need DAAS TORAH to help with the decision, so be it. A real Gadol will see that each person needs something different.
I can't understand what you're saying but you seem to be on to something there. On the other hand, since I don't understand you, you may be on to nothing there.
U r sooo right!!!!
Good morning Mr. Solomon! this is far from an unspoken option! It's spoken plenty just not publicly because it's not for everyone but I know many Yungeleit (including myself) who were told by daas torah to go to college not any college rather each person what's right for them. Secondly many of the bums & druggies you refer to start when their too young to go to college so your article is quite confusing!
Excellent points avi. Reb aaron said his psak in a different generation. And now we have way to many coffe roomers. I personally learned so I should get good chavrusas so I should get a good name so I should get a good shidduch. Now I'm married and I have no reason to learn anymore. I should have gone to college with my chavrusa. Anyway chances are, if u read the lakewood scoop, u should go to college as u have differing views then reb aaron anyway
in lakewood today there are courses to receive full degrees via night classes. NO NEED FOR FULL College.
Yes it would be great to have a degree yet i have been succesful without going to college. TODAY its a nisayon.
And to the one thinking jobs with degrees are 9-5 - GOOD LUCK- not in the real world. CPA's have their work season were they maybe come home at almost 12Am and back on the bus to NYC by 6:30AM. Ask doctors their hours. And how about lawyers....
In my opinion the Jr accounting course given by COPE is a must for anyone going into any field to understand business and accounting basics especilay if you want to be your own boss.
I would like to share with you mr soloman a story which took place in lakewood many years ago. there was a young orphan learning in bmg . his mother wanted him to go to college to get an education to support his family . in a kind and gentle way r' aharon tried to dissuade the boy . the boy told r' aharon if I don't go to college , how will I make a parnossa, r' aharon screamed in yiddish ,"saying you can't get a parnossa without going to college is like bowing to a tree and saying zeh kali v'anvaeiyhu ! mr solomam just because you went to colleg doesn't make it right . the nisyoinus there especially for our delicate youth are a real danger aside from the krumkeit which is taught there. our great gedolim r' ahron , r shach r chaim kanievsky fought good and hard . we've lost so many of our bnei torah to college. our gedolim know what they are talikng about . and yes there are teen at risk, many of them are suffering from mental illness, and many were abused, they need our concern, warmth and caring , they need training but no college is not the cure all. and for the yungerleit who are kvetching and wishing that they went to college , have faith , I know plenty of college graduates who are unemployed and left with thousands of dollars in tution bills at least u have your pute unadulterated un collegized das torah . yes times are tough, our job is not to be lazy, to do our full hishtadlus and to reall and truly work on tefilah, the abishter has not abandoned us, he' s just waiting for us. but college is not the answer,
Great article. Yeshiva is not 4 everyone ? Yes it is . This system does need some "tweaking". We are not all like Yoseph ben Yaacov. That is why we need a Yeshiva. However we do need other alternatives for those who do fit into the "cookie cutter" Torah im derch eratz ? Our Gedolim need to apply themselves to this problem There has to be Kosher options for everyone. What would R. Aaron Kotler say if he were to come back and visit Lakewood Ir HaKodesh (where stop signs are optional)? JII Pizza on Motzei Shabbos ? We can work it out. We are only as good as our weakest links . So those of you who are looking down from this pedestal , my want to rethink their selfish close minded position. We are supposed to be Clal Yisroel . . .
Mr. Solomon:
I am in yeshiva and intend on staying in yeshiva for many years to come. When I went out with my wife I made it clear that she would be supporting me for life, which she wanted to do. Married people in kollel only leave kollel because their true desire is not to learn the Torah of Hashem 24/7. My wife and I have come across hard times, but have been matzliach because I'm committed to learning. College is the yetzer hora's way of setting bait for those who don't have 100% of a ratzon to learn.
In reply to the poster who said that R'Aharon, ZTZ"L, tried to discourage the bochur from going to college: Of course, it would be very sad for a serious learner to leave learnng and go to college(although it does happen). Avi is referring to those who are not learning well. That's a very important difference! For someone who is just a leidigeier, and we see them all over, living off parent's money and not learning, then some sort of parnossa, and maybe a degree, should be a viable option, and not something ossur. Going around for years, not learning, and not earning, leads to NO GOOD, i.e. in E"Y, rioting and overturning dumpsters at the drop of a hat. No, I don't condone taking a serious learner away from learning. I do condone, and I believe that's what AVi is condoning, someone who is not learning, going out and seeking a livlihood. THis was always the "yiddishe derech". It's not a terrible thing. It's more terrible to do nothing.
Avi Solomon became someone to comment about! Anybody posting a comment here about this subject must not have gone to college because in college they teach you not to listen to anyone who is not a proffessor!
How about starting with a high school education? I have tried to higher several yungaliet out of BMG Kollel, most of them were totally illiterate, they were on a 5th grade level.
Aside from the fact that I don't think it is for the likes of A. Solomon/Lakewood Scoop to weigh in on this issue and without addressing the intrinsic issue at hand, allow me to say, I used to CRINGE when I heard people express the sentiment that they would prefer their son to be a coffee room hocker then go to college/leave Yeshiva as a bocher...until(1) my brother went to Touro (yes touro) with that chesbon and after a few years in Corporate America ended up leaving the world of Frumkeit behind(2)now almost 20 years later, when I look at my friends who I felt should of been in college/work and I look at my friends who actually went to college/work because they weren't learning anyhow, the difference in general frumkeit is a vast one.Both in relation to themselves and their children.I was told that Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky also came to that conclusion in relation to YTV alumni.At first he felt those who aren't learning should go to college, later on in life he(together with many other Gedolim, not just Rav Ahron) became a major speaker at the anti-college asifos
he tried to "higher"....
Besides for the Rema in YD 246, there is a serious issue of lo sinakshu if a person goes to college. If someone is frum and strong and just wants to earn a parnassah, that is one thing. However. Mr. Solomon talks about the "bums" of the world. If they go to college then that may mean something entirely different.
If someone knows and wants to be different, you may have a point. If someone is doing drugs and needs to use birth control at the age of 16, it is quite a different story. These people need help. They should be in a positive environment that encourages them toi get stronger, not be in an environment that encourages hefkeiros.
We need to do more for these children. Mr. Solomon's idea is not helpful.
The problem is real.
But what's needed is more vocational schooling (e.g. mechanics, plumbers, electricians etc.) and more accounting-type courses.
Actual college is unacceptable. Risk is too high.
To August 12, 2009 1:25 AM.
Question for you . what are you going to do if you get a letter one day from the government that you will be losing all your benefits that you currently have? certainly you wont look for a job because you made that PROMOSE TO YOUR WIFE! so what hishtadlus will u partake in to cover yourself of being mishtadel? Look what the Rabmam writes about ine who takes klal money to support him/herself . The frankelRrambam writes it too.
Anon at 3:56:
while I happen to agree with you and attend college myself, look in the Igros Moshe cheilek ches; its not so poshut.
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