(Click on letter to enlarge). (for those who can't enlarge it, this is the exact context of the letter sent to the Readers' Scoop writer : I am writing to you because I realize what great parents you would be. I promise you that if you accept upon yourself to wear much longer skirts and to always dress in loose (even baggy) clothing whether pregnant or not, Hashem will bless you both with children. Dear husband, it is your obligation to compliment your wife on how beautiful she looks this way. As it is truly beautiful to keep her real beauty just for you personally. You will both be blessed with children.)I was hoping you can post the attached letter on your blog. I don't know any other way I can express my frustration of inconsiderate and down right rude and thoughtless people. Attached is the letter and this is my comment: We've been married 2 years now, have no children and spend our time running to different specialist and undergoing fertility treatment. For some anonymous person to bud into my personal life and tell me he/she knows the answer to all our problems is wrong on every level. There is no rav, no person with brains (read more)
110 comments:
Good bye and good riddance.
everyone saying their opinion about everything in the voice on tls etc must stop. is this what hashem wants? everyone needs to learn to mind their own business and concentrate on themselves.
I am very sorry that u received such a awful insensitive letter... IYH Hash-m will bless you with a child very soon!
However, to blame the town to say how could a town produce these types of people I disagree! Im not from Lakewood (or the USA) and I could tell you that you will find these type of people everywhere! Hatzlocha Besuros tovos.
its absolutly horrible but im not shocked at the persons comment people have NO feelings and blurt out whatever crosses their mind!!! im sorry u know such a person.
good luck
im confused, how do you know it was to you?
I do not wear loose fitting clothes or long skirts and God has blessed me with 2 wonderful children so far. There are a lot of women that do not follow this life style and can't stop having kids. This is a personal and frustrating issue for a women and no one should judge. It is possible that it is not the women, the issue here could be that the man needs the tests.
Quote: "For some anonymous person to bud into my personal life". I don't know the facts in this case, but if it's true that you're not dressed in accordance with the spitit of Tznius, then it's not a "personal life" matter, for you are provoking other people to be Nichshal.
The ancient wisdom writings, especially Job, have dealt with the issue of how sometimes life isn't fair, without blaming the victim. A famous Rabbi wrote a book about it 30 years ago. How can it be that people in an advanced society with the revelation from G-d that we have can still blame a woman for something that could be a problem with the husband? Shame on anyone who can, sinful themselves, write to another blaming her for sins she may not even have committed.
To Anonymous 10:24 AM - It is the town, because that is the way this town is run, everybody is busy being worried about the next persons business, until it involves them personally then its a problem. Everyone is busy being more "FRUM" on other peoples cheshbein.
TO anonymous 10:42 AM - If your so worried you shouldnt be LOOKING at married ladies, and how are you on the internet?
i cant believe this letter!!! what an embarrassment to mankind. i wear more fitted clothing and short skirts...as long as my knee is covered, the skirt is kosher for me. i have a rav that i follow. Tznius is something that is between a person and Hashem. your friend's tznius, your neighbor's tznius, your sister's tznius, is none of your business. Each person is on their own level in yiddishkeit and its their own life. The letter write of the original letter will pay for this. Hashem will take care of it. To the couple that this letter was written to-- I apologize for this. I am truly sorry. May Hashem give you lots of bracha and hatzlocha, and may you be blessed with lots of yiddishe nachas.
Its amazing how some idiot is busy looking at every lady in town, and probably followed her home to see where she lives so he could put this dumb letter in her mailbox. Being that she isnt in politics this is her only way of expressing her greif and all you people have to say is how she must be wrong or there is something wrong with the husband, what a way to help bring Moshiach. If we'd all mind our own business and leave these MAJOR issues to the Rav to deal with.
"I don't know the facts in this case, but if it's true that you're not dressed in accordance with the spitit of Tznius, then it's not a "personal life" matter, for you are provoking other people to be Nichshal."
The writer is clearly telling you that she does dress appropiately. I think its clear that the point the writer was making is that its not for this moron that wrote the letter to decide whats appropiate or not. "Provoking other people to be nicshal" is a great excuse for being a pervert. Every speach in lakewood for women is about Tznius, People should look in the mirror and see the real problems. Causing a chillul hashem by driving 60 mph down a side street and not stopping by stop signs because you have to get to mincha on time is a lot worse than someone dressing not up to YOUR standards.
the pain this letter has caused my son-in-law and daughter is beyond comprehension.May we be zoche to the geula b'korov and as my machateinista said " we should be zoche to share simchos together"
That is why i would not move to lakewood.
even though its so much cheaper to live here.
i was here recently and we were sitting in the pizza shop and someone came over to my wife to tell her that a knee was showing (she was sitting down and didnt realize) and she should fix it b/c "around here this is how we dress"
she made a mistake and this "frum" lady felt it was important to embarrass her.
This is what makes Lakewood Great!
but if it's true that you're not dressed in accordance with the spitit of Tznius, then it's not a "personal life" matter, for you are provoking other people to be Nichshal.
If you are being nichshal in staring at other people's wives it is you that has the problem. Normal healthy men do not leer at other people's wives. Learn how to control yourself. Solve whatever problems exist in your own personal life that are causing you to stare in an improper manner at other people's wives. It is pathetic to justify your own perversions by blaming the other person. Be a man and take some responsability for your own actions.
Regarding the letter itself, IMO this is a direct result of the constant barrage of tzniyus speeches, tzniyus learning groups, tzniyus newsletters, tzniyus contests, etc. We have created people how grow up believing that tzniyus is the only thing that matters, therefore when it comes to tzniyus, the ends will always justify the means. If I believe that one way to acheive my goal of getting everyone to dress according to my personal standards is by rubbing a painful issue in their face, so be it. Please don't get me wrong, tzniyus is important and we sometimes do need reminders , but if we would spend half the time that we spend on tzniyus addressing bein adam lchavairo, we would be alot better off. We would understand that causing emotional pain to others in order to get them to comply with our own personal wishes is horribly wrong.
I'm feeling so left out.We live in Lakewood. My wife does not keep the to the standards of Tznius I think she should,but unlike every one else on Lakewood Scoop, no one ever wrote her any letters or made any comments.On the other if someone did, I don't think she would come crying to Lakewood Scoop unless it hurt a raw nerve.
I applaud the one who wrote this letter. Women do not understand how they are machshil other men.
Anonymous 11:52 - get a life nobody deserves this and making stupid comments like that is just as bad as the idiot that left this letter
to anon 11:57--
majority of the women in this town cover their elbows, collar bones, and knees. they dont walk around exposing themselves. it is the MEN that have a problem. I am a young woman in this town and i dress appropriately and tzniusdigly. i dress more with it bc i like style. but that is no reason for a man to stare. The men that stare are the ones with their own issues. Most normal men dont stare at me. it is always the yeshivish type of guy that does nothing all day and picks his nose, or the "bum"...
It is not a women's problem that men stare so stop blaming the women of this town.
I am shocked disgusted and cannot believe a person can bud into someone's life who is going thru torture as it is. And to everyone commenting that has nothing smart to say don't post your comments since you simply look STUPID and heartless and obiviously BRAINLESS As a person who went thru my own fertility issues I cannot explain what we go thru EVERY DAY the stupid senseless comments, having to attend simchos and getting pitiful looks listening to everyone else's lives. Going to Kiddush's and Brisim weekly getting the look. Having to go to doctor after doctor living at our Rav's house. WE GO THRU ENOUGH there is no reason a person should receive a letter like this. Every waking day is hard enough to face but this is totally thoughtless, ruthless (especially since it is untrue) How can a person tell a person what to do that will make them have a baby? Maybe I should go to this person (who is probably inhuman)and they will tell me what to do to correct a problem that Dr's cant correct. I am just speechless. I give the writer a bracha that in merit of all this pain you are going thru to be blessed with a child. (In your very tight clothing and short skirts)
Let me clarify my original letter to TLS.
I dress very tzinuis, just because I don't dress in black doesn't make me not tzinuis. My skirts are long, long enough that if I make them any longer I will trip and fall. When I do wear short skirts, the cover my knees at all times. But that's not the point.
The point is, for someone to send me a letter accusing me of something I'm not guilty of and then promise me that if I change the way I dress I would have children, who are they?!!!!! Are they God, do they know Gods ways??????
The point of having this published online is so that other people who feel they have a need to express themselves anonymously to people suffering already should know they have no right to do so. It will only make their suffering harder and I can guarantee you it will not change their ways.
Being childless in a society that assumes and expects everyone to have a child 9 months after getting married is hard enough. We don't need your rude and thoughtless comments on how to fix our problems. We have to deal with people on a daily basis saying stupid comments about us "still having no children" that's hard enough but to get an anonymous letter goes way beyond anything I could imagine.
And yes, this letter was addressed to me, because no one else in town received it and it had my name on the envelope.
This is a wonderful way to go into Rosh Chodesh Elul...whoever you are, you have a lot of work ahead of you. You hurt a lot of people in writing this to my husband and I.
Kol Kivudah Bas Melech Pinema!!! thats were it starts. A Bas Yisroel who walks around doing all the mitzvos in the word but is laking in Tzineyus is like going to a wedding in your pajamas but wearing a nice tie and shoes. if i guy is not wearing his suit all the extras in the world wont make him look better. the same is with tzineyus, if a women is not dressed tzineyusdig all the other chashuva mitzvos that she does are like the tie and the shoes. you first must be wearing a suit (ie. tzineyus) then you can put on all the tie and shoes (ie other mitzvos) to compliment the suit.
As s/o who waited 5 years to have children I find this letter extremly hurtful please no one can play g-d and decide why others don't have children yes we can get closer to hashem but no through letters to others
To the couple who know what this embaressment may help I for sure don't
Ymalei hashem kol mishalois lebecah
to "Lakewood Used to be Holy"
If i"m not mistaken the TLS posted a letter from all the Rabunim in Town asuring most off the close that the girls and women in Lakewood walk around in. So the Rabunim Dealt with it and yet the people arent listing. so what else is your recomondation on how to deal with tzineyus issues. Please Respond!!!
As a side point, TLS and its choshuver readers are prbably unaware that "Kate Perry" is the name of a disscusting popstar who sings very lurid songs , a commenter that uses her name in matters of tzneius should be ignored and judged accordingly.
learn how to spell disgusting. And keep your stupid comments to yourself.
First of all I would like to thank the Scoop for putting up this letter. I would like to say thank you to all the support we are getting from MOST of the comments it means a lot to us. For those that are saying,
”I applaud the one who wrote this letter. Women do not understand how they are machshil other men”.
You don’t know me or my wife, I don’t know what gives you the right to say things like that. Now I would like to say even if she would dress “faprutzadick” WICH SHE DOSE NOT how dare anyone tell me why Hashem is doing something to us, who do you think you are?? If you thought your “FRUM” cheshbon is the way to do things why don’t you come over and say it to my face?? You are a coward and you need big time help.
Hey Mr. Letter Writer,
Thank you for displaying so openly and so clearly what is wrong with our "frum" society. I'm sure you sent this letter thinking all kinds of holy thoughts, bun in reality your frumkeit is a sham, your priorities are completely messed up. No your are not Frum. A real frum person would rather not cause someone else such anguish, instead of deciding that your krumkeit is more important. Do teshuvah fast and hard. You need it.
I'd say that choosing to react to this letter by running to TLS (rather than just throwing it in the trash) is itself of questionable tznius.
To Annon - 2:07
Throwing it in the trash is pointless, maybe the idiot that did this will see this and realize what he did is wrong and more harmful then doing this without thinking, and wont do this again.
I personaly think there is a special place in gehenim for him and whoever else helped convince him to do this.
To Anonymous 1:34
If like you said that the Rabunim did assur what the girls are wearing, how is this going to help out? Also each Rav should take care of their shul and talk to each person individually as he feel needed, it's not up to the public to decide who doing what is correct and what is wrong.
sometimes people need support from their community when they are hurtig and just putting it out there may help with the stress and frustations this letter caused. It may not be so easy to just thow something so painful away. Be kind to this couple they need support!
Did any one thnk of the possi that the sender of the letter was realy trying to help
To Anon 2:27
Please explain how exactly a mean and discusting letter like this is supposed to help out? If the person really cared there are much better ways to discuss this then to send people an anonymous letter.
"Did any one thnk of the possi that the sender of the letter was realy trying to help"
This really says it all. Its not a problem with the one individual who wrote that stupid letter. Its a much bigger problem. Who asked anyone for help? This I'm so frum (frummer than you) let me help you attitude is wide spread.
I don't know if this letter was written to someone specific or it is just a generalisation. However, the letter writer is not wrong in suggesting higher standards of tsnius as a zechus to have children. If someone wants something from Hashem, he has to reflect on his actions to see if there is anything that is possibly hindering his success. If someone has the nisayon of not having children, and the mode of her dress is lacking, perhaps she could try and better herself as abargaining chip with Hashem. You can make deals with Hashem. I would like to see the women in Lakewood and everywhere else dress with more Jewish refinement. It is not a Lakewood thing, Jewish women all over are not dressing up to par, no matter what their rabbonim tell them, and if they want zechusim, they should try to improve.
to the sick person who inflicted such pain on this couple, first of all, to dress in BAGGY clothing can be a breach of tznius in its own right. there are plenty of woman who wear extremely BAGGY clothing and do not look very tzniusdik. and also, HOW IN GODS NAME CAN YOU PROMISE THIS COUPLE CHILDREN? are you a navi? do you know why things happen in this world? MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. you are extremely heartless and cruel to do something like this. i dont care if you had all the good intentions in the world. take your holy intentions and keep it to yourself. next time you should think of the after effects of your actions. do you think this man and his wife slept last night? do you think they will sleep tonight? i hope you rethink your actions and ask this couple for michila. and this time ask them straight to their face. dont, as dad 2b said, use your cowardly ways to ask for michila. i hope, for your sake, that they forgive you. and to the hurting couple, may hashem grant you many happy and healthy children that are assets to klall yisrael in the very, very near future.
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE to decide what a person has to work on. No one, and I'll repeat, no one has any right to decide what middah a person has to work on. NO ONE. That is between the person and God, no one else.
To suggest that the writer knows what this childless couple has to work on to fix this problem is CRAZY. Maybe if he really cared about them and is concerned about them he should fix his Bain Adam L'Chavero in the zechus of these people.
There are many great people in this world, many gedolim who never had children, don't tell someone who is suffering beyond what anyone can imagine, that "I promise" you will have children if you wear longer skirts it's absurd!
It's crazy and incentive and...
I personally know this couple very, very well tzinius is not one of their struggles. They both dress very befitting as frum people should.
To: More tsnius needed said...
If you read what happened you would see that they received this letter in their mail box (it was mailed to them). Before you start agreeing about this it would help to READ the story. I'm not saying that what he said is so far fetched, but just like the writer of the letter, you should get your facts straight before you say something inappropriate and thats hurtful, and in this situation he happens to be incorrect as I know the couple and what he said is NOT true about them.
"the letter writer is not wrong in suggesting higher standards of tsnius as a zechus to have children."
Except that's not what happened. The letter writer actually *promised* that they would have children.
What good is a promise from an anonymous person who can't fulfill the promise and to whom you can't turn to when the promise is unfulfilled?
The Wolf
To be honest I dont know why your shocked. This is the town we live in. I dont take those things personal at all. I just laugh at it, Knowing that there are a bunch of those types of people in this town that would do something like that. I know it hurts because of what your going through, but seriously you cant take that personal. Think about this, if a mental patient in a hospital would send you that letter would it bother you.....
Think about this, if a mental patient in a hospital would send you that letter would it bother you.....
A mental patient didn't send it. Someone with a frum cheshbon did. A so-called frum Jew. That reflects on me. I can't ignore it, I feel it's my duty to be mocheh and say that this is not frumkeit. This is not even Judaism. This is one thing and one thing only: cruelty.
KUDOS TO CHIEF LAWSON
Kate Perry you are soooo wrong !! you ARE responsible for another man looking at your skirts etc. you are on display and thats is NOT what Hashem wants from us!!! I am not the frumest around but what you said is ridiculous!!!
IT’S AMAZING!!! Most of the posts are saying that it’s none of the letter writers business, and people have to mind there own business, and every one should worry about themselves etc...
The same should apply to you, its none of your business to make a comment on whether this person was right or wrong! Mind your own business ok! Its between him and hashem!!!
Obviously you get my point, which is that; this is the whole Jewish world today every one thinks they are allowed and are supposed to decide what’s right and wrong in this world. For some of you it’s to bash people in blogs (hiding behind fictitious names or “anonymous”) and then it’s this letter writer who is going to straiten out the tznius problem in the world the way he thinks it should be done.
Essentially you’re all guilty of the same thing you say he’s guilty of!!!!
I think we should all mind our own business.
SO MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
to all women in lakewood I don't know if you people realize how bad it is for us men to walk around in lakewood where ever you go walk ect there are women dressed not tznius.the way you dress causes a lot of michsolim to us men your beauty is for you & your husband & not meant for me thankyou very much
My wife and I did not have children for three and a half painful years. Years that we did not know would come to an end. Every day was a living hell. B'h we did not live in lakewood for much of the time where it is practically entirely inhabited by young couples having children every eleven months. Yes we know what pain you are going through. I cannot understand how someone has the nerve to play G-D. Everyone has different standards of tznius and many won't like what my wife wears either but you know something;go somewhere. My wife is always returning or simply not buying clothing that she'd love to buy because it is "questionable". No it is not assur but questionable but she still will not wear it. But she also gets comments because she does dress in style(aka "with it" and doesn't throw a tablecloth over herself. My wife sometimes complains to me that "regular" men stare at her even in a snood! I don't think that is her fault. I think it actually may be THAT MAN'S WIFES FAULT. Maybe she should dress a little more appealing so her husband won't find the need to look at other women. And to all those "frum" people that won't like that idea,maybe it would help to know that the wives of Tanoim and Amoraim would try to dress to please their husband(evident in numerous places in shas). My wife got a comment because she weras capped sleeves! Now isn't that terrible?!! I understand that not everyone agrees on what characterizes tznius but that doesn't mean that you can tell my wife or any woman that she does not dress tzniusdik. Just as one Rov may permit doing something on Shabbos and another will say it is totally assur I have the right to listen to my Rov without your interference. From the woman's response it is clear that she dresses tzniusdik al pi halacha. She probably just dresses a little more in style than the letter-writer would like to see. Hey! Move to Mea Shearim,there are many people there who would fully embrace your philosophies. When you return you'll probably be throwing acid at women instead of writing letters though!
To the couple that received this letter I wish you much hatzlocha and Hashem should give you many happy and healthy children and you should only see nachas from each and every one of them.
"If someone has the nisayon of not having children, and the mode of her dress is lacking, perhaps she could try and better herself as abargaining chip with Hashem. You can make deals with Hashem."??????!!!!
Seriously?!? Hashem can be bought? Hashem has a price? Who can pay it? Our actions are meant to honor G-d, to give our praise and love to G-d--Not to buy favors!!!! How awful! This couple should be receiving your prayers, love and support, not advice on how to bribe G-d!
to all women in lakewood I don't know if you people realize how bad it is for us men to walk around in lakewood where ever you go walk ect there are women dressed not tznius.the way you dress causes a lot of michsolim to us
Gimme a break. Speak for yourself. Stop blaming your personal issues on all the women of Lakewood. I am a man living in Lakewood and have never felt that way. Elul is a great time to work your problems, best get started quickly.
I can only hope that the more outrageous comments here are fakes. Women have to cover themselves because men can’t control themselves?! Goyish men manage to control themselves just fine around women in tube tops, shorts, and flip-flops. If the supposedly holier yungerman really has a problem controlling himself when he sees (gasp) a woman in a fashionable shirt, there is a serious problem in the yeshivish world.
As for the letter writer, he’s most probably a none-too-intelligent well-meaning young man with only a tenuous grasp on reality. The fault lies as much with whoever taught him it is acceptable to disparage those who don’t share his standards (and that the lack of those standards are the cause of all ills) as it does with him.
Tom MOM2B & DAD2B,
I'm sorry that you are going through such a rough period.
My wife & I did not have children for three years, but B"H we didn't take it as hard as most people do.
Keep yor sunny side up; HaShem has a plan for everybody. We don't know what or if or anything. Just try to beleive that HaShem is taking care of you!
Oh, about that letter, try to ignore it, the guy is just a cowardly crackpot.
Responce to G*3
Looking at a woman other then your wife is asur if you are getting hanauh and the goyim are the proof. They are dressing the way they do for one reason and one reason only to get people to look at them. So I’m not sure which world you live in but all the goyim do all day is check out the women.
I speak Spanish and whenever I go into a pizza shop here in town, I hear all the Mexican working making the most crude remarks about some of our “frum” women that dress in a way that attracts them. So please tell me what does control mean? where do you see goyim controlling themselves?
first off, people should really learn to spell
secondly, who died and put this guy in charge to go making promises? there have been so many saintly people who have not had children (gd loves their prayers)and vice versa. Abusive mean people who have fourteen kids, etc. It's not our business, it's god's.
thirdly, to all the people who constantly complain about the tznius in Lakewood I beg to differ. I live here and run around alot and I am very impressed that the women and girls here go out of their way to be b'tznius, even in these hot summer months. Occasionally, I do see someone dressed really really inappropriately, but that is not even 1% of the women. SO let's get some perspective here...
Meanwhile, let me share something my friend told me who was married for seven years before children. Her attitude back then was, she knows iyh she will have children. Right now she doesnt, and she will use that to her advantage and enjoy her unique situation with her husband in ways she will not be able to once she is blessed with children. Now, she has four kids (three under four years of age) and is expecting another. She is very busy with her little ones and cant take time out for trips and stuff, but she feels she had her time for relaxing...
I know it's hard, but try to relax and enjoy yourself a little. Dont feel you have to produce a baby right this minute because that is expected of you by the community. They will come in good time - you are young with plenty of years ahead of you, and when you are busy with your kids iyh, you will appreciate them all the more for having waited. I hope I am not being insensitive by saying this.
Would love to hear what pearls of wisdom this 'ehrlicheh' guys says when he's 'menachem avel'. He's the guy in all those horror stories.
Why is it that whenever the topic of tziniyus is brought up it gets such a negative response? The answer is simple because if we wouldn’t nock the subject we would have to admit that we are lacking in our modesty and that would mean making changes in our lives, and that we can’t tolerate to be dictated by some “narrow minded Rav” about how we should dress. So we say things like “it’s the guys problem he shouldn’t be looking” or it’s between me and Hashem”. Get real, we just are on such a low level and we’ve stooped so low that the easiest thing to do is ignore a problem and not make changes in our lives.
To anon 3:45---
Anonymous said...
Kate Perry you are soooo wrong !! you ARE responsible for another man looking at your skirts etc. you are on display and thats is NOT what Hashem wants from us!!! I am not the frumest around but what you said is ridiculous!!!
I beg to differ. if my skirts, etc. are tznius, there is no reason why a man should turn his head. I do look somewhat like kate perry, but what difference does that make????!
There is a famous video of a lady who didn't have children for many years, and she mentioned this fact to Rav Amnon Yitzchak.
Rav Amnon Yitzchak asked her if she would be willing to accept upon herself to always cover her hair. After much consideration, she accepted, and Rav Amnon Yitzchak blessed her in public.
A year later she had a baby boy.
Watch the video. I cried when I watched it.
to anon 8:52----
that doesnt mean anything. obviously Rav A Yitzchak felt that that woman should cover her hair. That video does not mean that everyone who doesnt have kids yet, should walk around in models coats. sorry! you missed the boat on this one!
I didn't say that therefore everyone should walk around in model coats. In fact I didn't say ANYTHING at all, except quote the story.
But there is definitely an important lesson. And that is, that improving in tznius can be a zchus to have children. THAT'S IT. That's all I'm saying. Everyone should take it in their own way.
I'm not sending letters, I'm not harrasing anyone, I'm not demanding anything, I'm not trying to be frummer than thou,....
I'm sharing with you a special story, a famous one, which may help people in their relationship with Hashem, especially during Elul.
Hashem does respond to our improvements. Watch the video. A lady didn't have children (I believe 10 yrs), accepted upon herself covering her hair, and had a boy!!!
The video is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uSkv8rmhLs
rav amnon yitzchak deals with non frum jews, and tries to be mekarev them. this woman adheres to all the halachos of tznius.i know her personally. and anyway,like anon said before,that is SO not the point.
We should all help donate money for male infertility. Please support boiner olam
One word HAZIT!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uSkv8rmhLs
to anon 9:41----
that was way to corny!!!!!!
first of all as someone who knows this couple extremely well there can be nothing further from the truth regarding the mom2b's standard of tzniyus but that is beside the point.
even if it was the case (which it absolutely not) the mere fact that someone could use the single most painful issue in these wonderful people's lives as a tool to advance their agenda is beyond cruel and resembles a very frum member of the taliban. may hashem bentch this model couple with healthy and beautiful children bikarov and may they see an abrubt end to their immense pain.
Dear very near future Mother,
As I read this letter all I can think about is my sister who is married 1 year less than me (i'm married K"H 19 years) and has not been able to have children. She has adopted 2 wonderful girls whom she loves dearly (and by the way look like her).
These people who think they a frumer than G-D have nothing better to do than make people feal like garbage. They will get thiers.
I"H when you hold your new born child in your hands IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE you will just laugh at this letter.
My you be zocher to have many children & don't let these hurtful letters bother you.
A Father who feels for you.
This reminds me of an incident that happened to a friend of mine while she was leaving Dr. Shanik's office recently. A yeshiva man passed a piece of paper to her 3 year old son, and asked him to give it to his mother. The paper read as follows..."I am able to see the back of your knees. Please lengthen your skirt." Maybe he also writes anonymous letters pertaining to feminine issues in his spare time. Or maybe he just needs a good therapist. So i guess you're in good company and may the pain that you are suffering now lead to a yeshua and may you spend many happy hours in Dr. Shanik's office surrounded by emotionally healthy people, both male and female.
Why does everyone here use “anonymous”?
Anyway, in “responce” (sic) to the person who addressed me:
> Looking at a woman other then (sic) your wife is asur if you are getting hanauh
That’s the problem, isn’t it. It’s a thought crime. Noticing attractive women is evil, because… well, it just is. And clearly women causing men to notice their attractiveness is the cause of all evils in society. Those poor men, they just can’t help themselves.
> and the goyim are the proof.
Proof of what? That looking at a woman other than your wife is assur? Or did you mean proof that men are attracted to women? The former is ridiculous, and as for the latter, men (and women) are attracted to each other, Jewish or not. The difference is that most goyim in the Western world manage to regularly interact with attractive women without being offensive.
> They are dressing the way they do for one reason and one reason only to get people to look at them.
And you know this how? Somehow, I would be very surprised to hear you have any sort of credentials that make you at all qualified to judge people’s motivations. As someone who does have such credentials, The first rule of therapy is never assume you know why someone is doing something.
> So I’m not sure which world you live in but all the goyim do all day is check out the women.
All six and a half billion of them? Or just the three and a quarter billion who are men?
Blanket statements like that are ridiculous. Undoubtedly, some men spend all their time checking out women, but most have other things that occupy the majority of their time. And again, most men manage to interact with women without being offensive.
> I speak Spanish and whenever I go into a pizza shop here in town, I hear all the Mexican working making the most crude remarks about some of our “frum” women that dress in a way that attracts them.
The best argument I’ve ever heard for abandoning extreme tznious restrictions. Obviously its not working anyway!
> So please tell me what does control mean?
Ah, now we get to something useful. Defining terms. Control means behaving in a way that the woman they are interacting with doesn’t find offensive. For instance, not leering at her because her knees are uncovered, her collarbone is showing, or, worst of all, she’s wearing a fashionable shirt.
> where do you see goyim controlling themselves?
Ask anyone who works in non-heimish company. Male and female workers somehow manage to interact civilly with each other on a daily basis, even if the women are not dressed tznius. The men are not reduced to panting bags of raging hormones and the women somehow refrain from table dancing on their male co-workers’ desks. Can you believe it?!
All right, I’m done. That was fun. Shall we go another round?
"Ask anyone who works in non-heimish company. Male and female workers somehow manage to interact civilly with each other on a daily basis, even if the women are not dressed tznius."
Really? And men in those environments manage to maintain shmiras einayim, avoid hirhurim, onanism, etc.?! We all know they don't. Blaming the victim (the men who are exposed to these michshalim) is simply an empty effort to avoid taking resposibility to the very real spiritual danger that such women bring into our community.
To the man who likened tznius to a suit and all the other mitzvos to socks and shoes... although your mashul was a powerful one, I have to ask - where are your sources for getting the ratings on mitzvos?! Last I checked there were 613 mitzvos and none of them had any kind of ratings listed... Who are you to say what comes first?! So enjoy walking around in your "invisible suit".
All comments regarding tznius are totaly irrelevant!!! The issue at hand is that there are fellow jews who are in pain, for whatever reason and for someone to go and send such a letter and not sign it is so hurtfull!!!! How dare they bud in to such a personal affair?! Having the letter unsigned, as uncomfortable as it is just makes the whole thing seem like a cruel joke and I hope you dont take it seriously. They will have to come forward eventualy and ask you for mechila...
I am so curious as to what the person who wrote this was thinking?! what did they really think would come out of sending this? "Chanie, I think its time we get you a new wardrobe... we recieved an unsigned letter that promises us children if you do so...who knows, maybe its from Eliyahu hanavi...Oh and look here... we also received a letter that says if we mail them an envelope with $20 and our social security numbers we will recieve a check in the mail for one million dollars!!! Givalt! Hashem loves us...
Seriously?!?! How can people be soooooooooo stupid?!?!?!?
While it’s true that the insensitivity of the person who wrote the letter is inexcusable, he (she?) chose to focus on tznius, and that didn’t come ex nihlo from a corner of his mind. It is because it is such a focus in the community, and one which is consistently blamed for nearly every problem someone may suffer.
> Really? And men in those environments manage to maintain shmiras einayim, avoid hirhurim, onanism, etc.?!
I’m not even going to pretend to know to what extreme you think these things need to be taken. But please explain to me what you’re parameters are, and then we can discuss it.
> Blaming the victim (the men who are exposed to these michshalim) is simply an empty effort to avoid taking resposibility to the very real spiritual danger that such women bring into our community.
The victim? How is the man being victimized here? By being forced to acknowledge to himself that he finds women attractive? And can you please be more specific about the “spiritual danger?” How exactly does this work? What do you imagine is happening when a man looks at a woman, aside from a primitive circuit in his brain going, “Hey, a female! I wonder if she’s fertile,” an involuntary reaction that most men manage to suppress when it’s inappropriate. Or do you think your body’s reaction tears holes in your neshama? Before you answer that, think about Who designed your body.
To the writer of this letter: I cried for you and I davened for you. May you know no more suffering and pain. I will keep you in my teffilos.
Please tell me how are men to deal with women that wear flip flops and tub tops even those sundress that are sleeve less
Any man who is on this blog complaining of how women dress better make sure both hands are on their mouse at all times. One wrong click on the computer can reveal a lot more than any style of clothing can.
For g*3
A non jewish camera man told a friend of mines father that he loves takeing pictures at jewish weddings.
my sistwr in law works at madison title and overhereard a non jew saying how is that all jews have such beutiful hair
You people should stop talking about tzinius...
First of all, don't blame tzinuis on the women, it's just as much the men's responsibility
Second, that's not the point of the original post
The point is that when someone is going through trying times, whatever it is, don't tell them what's wrong with their way of life and how to fix it because unless you are God you don't have any answers
IMHO dad2b and Mom2b wasted an opportunity to capitalize on the famous brocho (as told by pesach krohn et al re: R chaim Kanievsky) about Have'elovim Ve'nom Olvim...
Those that are humiliated and KEEP QUIET have a tremendous Koach Hatifilla...
Elokim Yevakesh Es Nirdaf
To Anon 11:30
You are pathetic for saying or thinking such a thing, the reason why they did this was to hopefully get the message back to the idiot that wrote this, that he was very wrong for doing this and hurt them very much, and to hopefully stop him from doing this to other people.
and IMHO they lost an opportunity
Because that guy couldn;t give a hoot
To Also grew up in LAkewood:
Such helpful opinoins should be kept to yourself, if this would have happened to you i guarantee you wouldn't have kept quite
As IY"H Mom2B told me, she only posted this on TLS after speaking to her Rav and was told to put it out there so other people going through hard times don't have to suffer like they did.
It's people like you, Anon 11:30 a.m., that that this was posted for, maybe you can learn to MYOB when you have nothing intelligent to say
You;re right i probably would, but then i would have missed a golden chance
and come to think of it i actually am by answering you....
THE LETTER WRITER IS CORRECT IF U HAVE ISSUES WITH THE WAY SHE DRESSES (WHICH YOU SHOULDNT HAVE NOTICED IN THE FIRST PLACE IF YOU WERE MAKPID ON SHMIRAS ANYIM)
A)TELL HER HUSBAND B)TELL THE RAV OF THE SHUL WHERE HER HUSBAND DAVENS
BUT DONT START YOUR OWN TZNIUS PATROL AND EXPALIN HASHEMS REASONS OF WHY A COUPLE DOESNT YET HAVE CHILDREN
MUSSOR STARTS WITH ONES SELF PEOPLE LEARN BY EXAMPLE NOT BY ANONOMOUS DISGUSTING LETTERS THROWN INTO OTHER PEOPLES MAILBOX IN MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT ITS ELUL
YOU SHOULD PUT ANOTHER LETTER INTO THIS COUPLES MAIL BOX AND ASK MEICHELA AS YOU REALLY OWE THEM BIG TIME FOR ALL THE AGMAS NEFESH YOU CAUSED THEM!
The yesoid of tzNiyus is not something thatcannot be promoted or enforced any more than the conepts of anavah or ahavas yisroel. It is something that one feels for themselves and does not need to be projected on others.imagine telling your neighbor to be more of an anav like you are. Ridiculous right?a person that is a tznuah shouild take pride in themselves and learn to look the other way if someone is not wearing clothing they themselved would not.every person has their own level of tzniyus that they feel comfortorable with and many have a halachic psak that will agree with them.insulting a fellow yid should be should be a bigger rconcern than a mode of dress.every man that feels he has a problem should look away or seak counseling if they cannot. Those that scream the loudest about tzniyus issues usually have a deep psychological problem that needs attention. There is so many more pressing things to scream about
the letter asking michila should not be put in the mailbox. michila must be asked straight to the couples face. putting a letter asking for michila is a total cop out.
i also speak perfect Spanish and any time i walk down Clifton Ave all i hear them saying is comments about every Frum lady walking down the street and the ratings they give her! It is terrible the way ladies in this town dress! Do not be scared of your wife, tell her NO WAY!
Hello!!!
"goyim interact with women dressed not tzniyus and control themselves."
THat is so not true.
Look at their divorce rate, and the rate of extramarital affairs...
that is control??
I rest my case.
according to all you retarded ppl out there it seems that the best thing would be if women wore sack cloth and made themselves ugly! Bu hey according to halacha a woamn must dress presentable and look nice! shouldnt this halachah contradict your crazyness about woman dressing nicely? all you ppl should go get a job asap instead of busying yoursevles with looks of other woman who follow their ravs advice on how to dress.
1- For those bashing ladies for being nicshal men I heard from a bal mussar the first look is an oynes the second look is where the sin may come in.( not that their rite dor dressing that way)
2- for those defending their wifes the way they dress I never understood why would you want your wife to be on display and everyone looking at them I want people to keep their eyes off my wife.
3- when lkwd had the asifa for tznius by a meeting one rov said he can not speak to his shul about mechazek tznius because his own wife and children don't dress properly. No its not every rov but the possibilty of a rov saying its ok is not for sure a kosher.
4- B"H my wife is pg with our first after 3 and half years for all those feeling the letter recivers pain you will never understand so you should probally hush it its not what she wants to hear if you want to help her just daven to tell the kon2be just to ignore it, it is impossibile its such a personeal issue
and they lived happily ever the end
Hey letter writer, if only you were around when Sara, Rivka and Rocehl Imeinu cried out to Hashem for children. You could have solved their suffering and advise them to dress properly.
You mean well, yet you have caused innocent people such pain. The problem is, you think you are still in the right. It's okay here inLakewood to be a rude and insensitive person, as long as you have tznius. How corrupt. Mind your own businness, and work on your Bein Adam L'chaveiro. It is so easy to blame it all on Tznius, It is guaranteed you the sinas chinam and Loshon hora are the mian factors that brings the bad into this world.
To post 4:53 pm who wrote
"according to all you retarded ppl"
Please be more sensitive, particularly on a blog that is discussing sensitivities.
Signed, A SCHI parent
Dear Misguided Letter Writer,
I am writing you because I realize what a good Jew you could be.
I promise you that if you accept upon yourself to have rachmanus on yiden who are suffering & to be "Nosei Ol B'chaveiro", Hashem will repay your kindness. If you cause needless tza'ar to a suffering couple, however, you will one day regret it. You obviously do not have enough foresight to understand that you are not immune from tzuris yourself.
Dear letter writer, I assume that you are a woman, based on your grammar and style of writing. Perhaps your own husband has a wandering eye, and does not necessarily appreciate your own real personal beauty. This can cause you to put the blame on other women. Have I hit a raw nerve? Should I mind my own business?
May you and your marriage be blessed by Hashem.
Anon 9:44
Great post..very well written...I second that
I think the increase in tzniyus focus comes because some frum women indeed are dressing inappropriately. Also, people attribute community misfortunes to a lack of tznyius.
In other words, there can be legitimate concerns driving the increased focus on modesty. On the other hand, I think that the frum community needs to be sure that it's raising healthy children.
At the same time that we are putting so much energy into controlling male desires by means of tzniyus, perhaps we should make a corresponding effort to make sure that our children have an opportunity to ask all questions and can develop a healthy attitude towards sexuality.
A non jewish camera man told a friend of mines father that he loves takeing pictures at jewish weddings.
my sistwr in law works at madison title and overhereard a non jew saying how is that all jews have such beutiful hair
Not really sure what your point is…
> Espanol Speaker said...
i also speak perfect Spanish and any time i walk down Clifton Ave all i hear them saying is comments about every Frum lady walking down the street and the ratings they give her! It is terrible the way ladies in this town dress!
How exactly do you think women need to dress to keep men who want to from looking at them? If the point of tznius is to make a man not notice a woman, and the women of Lakewood are ready to take upon themselves whatever measures are necessary to achieve this end, then you and I should go into business making burkas for the heimish crowd. And even then, I bet men will notice women.
> Do not be scared of your wife, tell her NO WAY!
You really think that a healthy marriage includes being afraid of your spouse and/or dictating terms?
> yagayaga said...
Hello!!!
"goyim interact with women dressed not tzniyus and control themselves."
THat is so not true.
Look at their divorce rate, and the rate of extramarital affairs...
that is control??
I rest my case.
What exactly do you imagine happens? A man sees an untzniuos women, follows her home and cheats on his wife with her, and this leads to a divorce? Hardly. Divorce rates are up because divorce no longer carries the stigma it once did. As to the rate of extramarital affairs, do you have any numbers comparing the rates in the frum and general population, or are you just assuming that since frum yidden are perfect in every way, of course they don’t have affairs at the same rate as those disgusting Godless fundamentalist Christians?
i believe that the guys who wrote the letter is a real idiot and very inconsiderate , but i think there is a very strong point to be made here. I dont believe that anyone who on the internet can even claim for 1 second that ladies dressing not tzniusdik in lakewood is causing men to be nichshal in averius, for a very simple reason. you can see more shmutz on the internet in 5 minutes than you can see in lakewood in 5 years and we all know it. i think that all of us adults have to learn self control , and stop blaming the woman for the mans lack of self control. go to manahatten for one day and you will see what dressing provoctive really means.
But there is one thing that i hold woman who do not dress tniusdikly accountable for . and that the children. if my children see a woman especially one who is married to a kollel guy dress not tzniusdikly the will think that - hey i can be frum and dress like this and its kewl and ok, and my parents must be old fogies who are not up to date with times. as for myself and almost all the other men who are online or in the business world , or even the yeshiva guys who can see more shiksas that are 3/4 undressed on any block of lakewood - have to learn self control regaurdless of how jewish woman dress . but for the children growing up to see a jewish woman dressing provoctive that is the biggest problem. i would rather that you took off your shatiels, got a big tatoo and a few pircings and walked around half undressed , that at least my children would think your a shiksa and not consider following your ways. you can do whatever you want. its a free country and a free world , but you obviously do not care about the children of our next generation and the examples you are showing them , and you expect others to care about your children or lack of children ?
trust me i know your pain of not having children. it is undescribable. but before pointing fingers back , just consider the fact that we all are the same self centered and inconsiderate beings as the the person next door, and it is time we all grew up . so to both of you - before you start pointing fingers at each other - take a good look in the mirror.
Anon 3:25 a.m.
Take a good look in the mirror and realize what an idiot you sound like. If only you read the original article and the numerous posts you would see that the couple who recieved this letter don't have tzinuis problem. Yes, everyone could always better themselves in every area, and especailly tzinuis, but to acuse a young couple going through infertility that their tzinius is problem and that's why you don't have kids, and then to have people come on this blog and say, yes you should work on your tzinius all you people are just as bad as the letter writer.
And stop blaiming the women all the time. Walk around lakewood and you will see many men who are not dressed as frum people. No, I'm not talking about the ones who don't wear white shirts every day...walk around and you'll see the men I'm talking about. Or maybe you won't, you just may think that they aren't jewish to begin with.
Instead of people pointing fingers keep your fingers in your pocket and work on yourself because everyone has something they can work on.
I'm disapointed with everyone,
ONLY 104 comments.
Were loosing our touch.
Anonymous said...
to "Lakewood Used to be Holy"
If i"m not mistaken the TLS posted a letter from all the Rabunim in Town asuring most off the close that the girls and women in Lakewood walk around in. So the Rabunim Dealt with it and yet the people arent listing. so what else is your recomondation on how to deal with tzineyus issues. Please Respond!!!
August 19, 2009 1:34 PM
-------------------------------
firt off it was NOT all the RABONIM in this town and second if my rav lives somewhere else i have the right to choose whichrav i use . If you dont like what you see then dont look and if you still dont like it then go live in a cave . And BTW if it so bothers you how can you shop at walmart., shoprite , kamart , homedepot and for that matter blog on line? you low life hypocrite that you are !
-Not reading those who preceded me...
May Hashem bless the two of you to become the parents of many healthy, happy, beautiful, smart, frum children. And forget the tznius issue....if only for the hurt and humiliation that that letter caused, you should be blessed with enough children to erase it.
You deserve it.
Since when is being married for two years considered a long time for not having chidren. This couple is seaking treatments just after two years ???????? Give me a break, they sound like they have a major self esteem problems and should move on with their life.
To anon 8:24
Talk about forgetting what the message of this post is. How insensitive of you. It sounds like YOU have major issues in judging others without having a clue as to what you are talking about. Do you have any idea what two years to wait for a child is? Do you know what their issues are? Do you know what they have been through already? Wow.
Dear Anonymous letter writer,
Who do you think you are??!! Do you think you are G-D?, Do you think you are a nice person? Do you think you are a smart person? As I qoute from your heartless letter "I promise if you accept upon yourself....Hashem will bless you with children."Dear husband...it is your obligation to.....before I continue to qoute these disgusting words let me set the record straight, you are not G-D, you are not a nice person, and you are not a smart person. How do you have the nerve to write such a letter, what were you thinking????? Did you actually think that any good would come out of a letter like this, let me break the news to you, all this letter did was cause pain, anguish and frustration and for that you should be ashamed of yourself.
We are approaching elul, yom hadin. For the sake of you and your family I would suggest you seriously think of what you did here, and ask this couple michila.
I hope we can all take a lesson from this of what not to do, and to be more sensitive to people's feelings.
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