(Attached is the original letter given to neighbor) (TLS welcomes your letters at thelakewoodscoop@gmail.com . The views are solely those of the writer and does not necessarily reflect the views of TLS)."Do you think this is a man's business to tell this to my wife? I think people should be minding their own business".
(The following is the exact text from the letter)."It is forbidden according to everybody for a lady to wear a red garment. This is not a decision based on today's Rabbinical decisions (although that should be enough anyhow). It is a 'Psak' from the Gemarah explicitly referring to the color red as a forbidden garment.We would really appreciate if you could kindly conform to this Halacha. This note is not written to hurt or offend you & I sincerely apologize if it does (as you prob did not know this Halacha). We are just begging you kindly please don't be Machshil other people. Thank you very much."
111 comments:
I think the commenter is 100% right. He said it in a very nice way and there is no reason for this woman to take offense. If she can't take any constructive criticism, she will have bigger problems in life.
It happens to be a clear halacha, how else should he have handled to situation.
I know TLS is not a forum for halacha, but perhaps you can clarify one inyan. Officially the style of wearing a shell with a short sleeve top above it is considered not so tzniusdik. Yet there are Lakewood stores that actually advertise these styles and its being worn all over.
Perhaps someone can clarify this matter.
I'm waiting for all the Taliban comments to start pouring in.
Actually it's not at all a clear halacha, and according to the Steipler (cited in Orchos Rabbeinu) is not applicable in our times.
Many women these days think it's a mitzvah to dress in a way that shows off every curve. Ugh!
Elokayhem she'll eileh soinei zimah.
Was it hand delivered?
The husband is a moron for publicizing the letter!
Can I ask this husband why the neighbor had to be the one to tell his wife and not him??!
The Lakewood of old is long gone. Let's hold on to whats left.
tight skirts r wrong to wear!
What about red crocks?
Please explain "officially" not tzniusdik. Who decided this?
Even assuming there is no Halacha issue with women wearing red,
if women can demand Bochrim smoking in the street to go far away (see last weeks letter about smoking)I don't see why men can't dictate to women how they should dress in public
first describe the color red and then we can talk . does it mean blood red or off red or a deep red?
are red socks or shoe laces a problem too? are red skirts with white tops a problem or does it mean that the entire dress is red? please explain this supposed halach that you ate referring to
is a red shaitel a problem too? if no then why not?
if a lady dresses modestly Yet someone still finds her being machshil him .he should see a DR. ASAP
This husband is considered a mesay'ah when another yid ends up being mz"l b/c of the forbidden way this guys wife dresses, and will also give a din vecheshbon when his time comes!
i think that husband should take his prutzah wife and get out of here instead of being even a bigger minuvel and rasha than he is already and publisie this as if he is proud of his wifes clothing
Re Shell w/ Short Sleeve:
This shell does not, 1)Show any more skin, 2)and does not show any more of body figure.
The only problem is that at first glance, it might hit you as actual short sleeves. But since the style became so prevalent, it no longer appears to anyone as short sleeves anymore.
It's the same thing when Reb Moshe used to asser shabbos clocks, because, lights going on in a house on Shabbos gives the appearance of someone putting on a light. Until the clocks became so commonly used, that this reason was no longer applicable.
"Can I ask this husband why the neighbor had to be the one to tell his wife and not him??!
The Lakewood of old is long gone. Let's hold on to whats left."
June 23, 2009 1:26 PM
Just because you think it's assur, doesnt mean that everyone has to hold like you.
If it is assur is besides the point.
If a man notices and remembers what color shirts his neighbor's wife wears he is being machshil himself.
Normal men men dont remember things like that unless they are thinking about the woman more then they should
It happens to be a clear halacha, how else should he have handled to situation.
June 23, 2009 12:51 PM
It just so happens NOT to be a CLEAR halachah
This husband is considered a mesay'ah when another yid ends up being mz"l b/c of the forbidden way this guys wife dresses, and will also give a din vecheshbon when his time comes!
June 23, 2009 1:48 PM
YOu Idiot!
You're jumping to conclusions that it was prutzisdig, Read the letter, the issue here is the color red.
The husband is right.
DO YOU WANT HEALTHY CHILDERE CHILDREN THAT GO IN G-DS WAYS HOW DARE YOU BE MACHSHIL SOME ONE DO YOU HAVE ANY CLUE HOW MUCH GEHENOM AWAITS SOME ONE WHO LETS HIS WIFE WALK AROUND IN UNTZNIUS CLOTHING ..GO DO TESHUVAH INSTEAD OF WRITING LETTERS TO THE SCOOP HOW BAD THAT OTHER PERSON IS YOU RIGHT NOW ARE THE PROBLEM THAT HAS TO BE DEALT WITH NOT HIM
YOU HAVE WAY TO MUCH TO LOSE IN LETTING YOUR WIFE WALK AROUND LIKE THAT AND ZERO TO GAIN EXCEPT HASEM YIRACHEM..
where is the halacha stated?
June 23, 2009 2:03 PM
YOU IDIOT ..THATS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM RED IS ASUR ...YOUR A APIKOROS
how about too tight and sheer, they are also clearly against halacha, yet who would know by walking down our streets. r"l!
DAVE YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD ,, could not have been said better
Whoever is claiming this Halacha to not be applicable today should please post an exact 'mareh makom' to prove his point & let the oilam check it out.
Until then it is 100% pashut that RED clothing which attracts attention is 100% ASSUR!
The letter writer could not have been nicer in bringing up this serious issue in a kind way to the violator and should be commended for his zikuy harabim.
dave ...i don't now who you are but finnaly some one saying it the way it should geat wording
June 23, 2009 2:10 PM tok the words out of my mouth
There are women in LW today who are dressing in order to be machshil men!
The husband is an imbacilic moron
2:18 unfortunately they are doing a gr8 job
There should be a vaad hatznius
I think we should just put this on the back burner for now and concentrateon the fact that the women drivers in this town should have a madatory drivers education!!what is going on pay attention to the road and kids in your car HANG UP THE PHONE!!!
What a beautiful written letter. It is so nice to see such caring messages being shared among the Lakewood community. This is probably the best way to approach such a situation. Instead of making this fellow uncomfortable by a personal discussion or having the neighbors Rav approach the evil neighbor, this person sent a anonymous letter. Besides the ultimate sensitivity displayed this was probably the most effective way to change this womans rotten dress choices. May Hashem bless all those who should be blessed and punish the wicked who deserve to be smoked!
I let my wife wear red because i like and she does
They dress to kill your neshama
234 soon other guys will like her too
anon 2:34,
Please don't share with us the details of everything else you and your wife like.. THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM > Things like this should only be kept between you % her... The whole world doesn't need to see all the things which you both like so much..
234 you are nuts
OMG i'm wearing a red necklace today and i have a red phone. im also wearing shoes that have a hot pink bow on them. Am i gonna get bleached?????
Anon 234 please keep the rest of your perverted fantasies to your self
This is the post-shidduch crisis
Is anon 2:34 the husband which received the letter?
The Bais Yaakovs have to teach the girls to dress tzniusdik even during summer vacation. Mark my words there will be scandal this summer followed by a major Tznius Asifa.
Many young husbands today are unfortunately excited by displaying trophy wives to staring oglers. Nebach - then the trouble starts....
teach them something
Anon 249
Stick to Halacha so that G-d won't bleach you.
June 23, 2009 2:34 PM
THE WORLD IS NOT HEFKER YOU CAN DRESS HOW YOU WANT BUT YOU WILL NOT WANT THE GEHENOM THAT COMES WITH IT THINK TWICE BEFORE YOU LET YOUR WIFE OUT THE DOOR IN SUCH CLOTHING IF LIFE MEANS ANYTHING TO YOU THE AOUNT OF PEOPLE YOUR MACHSHIL IS SCARY THERE ARE ALOT OF SCARY STORIES ABOUT THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO PEOPLE WHO DRESSED THAT WAY ........
If it is assur is besides the point.
Men who concern themselves complaining about the details of how woman dress (like what color shirts they wear) obviosly have issues and feel guilty about it.
If a man notices and remembers what color shirts his neighbor's wife wears he is being machshil himself.
Normal men men dont remember things like that about a woman unless they are thinking about the woman more then they should
Anonymous said...
234 soon other guys will like her too
June 23, 2009 2:41 PM
YOU SHOLUD OF ADDED.....AND YOU WILL NOT LIKE HER ANY MORE
Lets go lkwd ladys share your thoughts
If you like the way your wife looks in clothes that aren't tznius she may wear them in your house.
Help lkwd please
My wife were red i dont care
Anonymous said...
My wife were red i dont care
June 23, 2009 3:16 PM
YOU ARE PROBABLY A BOCHUR A REAL MINUVAL THAT LOVES WHEN THESE TOPICS COME UP AND JUST MAKING SUCH A COMMENT TO IRRIATATE OTHERS SICK MIND GET A LIFE
I would not email that mikvatalk guy. Women beware.
What a pruster email address!!
It should be banned from LW!
Pitchforks and torches, my place at 7 tonight!!
To answer your question:
Being that you are the type of person that it bothers you more that he wrote the letter, then what he wrote about, then you are 100% right. (obviously someone saying something to you or her will not change anything) He should not have written the letter at all.
If you see someone doing something wrong you are suppose to let them know. That is only if you know that it will help, but if you know they wont listen to you then you are not allowed to say anything. I am not sure if that applies to a woman though. He should of probably sent it to the husband. I believe that writing a letter to someones wife no matter what it says is a lack of tznius. There are proper ways to do things.
So basically the person that wrote that letter should be worrying about himself and doing it the right way.
It's kind of ironic that he would be complaining about tznius when he is not careful himself.
The question of, if you should have posted this or not... Thats a whole other story..
halacha aside - anything that is flashy and will attract men to look should not be worn!
Help lakewood ladys why are you dressing to get OTHER man to look at you is your husband not enough
If you were looking for people to mind their own business....
Keep posting things like this, that should help!
I am a lakewood woman who dresses trendy Not trashy, & it's the guys who look the most yeshivish that look my way. I bet the guy that types in all CAPS stares the most & can't keep his eyes on his own wife. It wouldn't make a difference if the woman is wearing red or black, it's the same guys that will stare. Get help if you can't control your urges.
WHY IS IT THAT PEOPLE DECIDE TO DICTATE THEIR OWN WAY OF LIFE ON OTHERS!?!?!?
HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THEIR RAV DOESN'T HOLD DIFFERENT THEN YOUR RAV DOES!?!?!?
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE AT THE LEVEL OF YIDDISHKEIT THAT YOUR AT!?!?!?
YOU ARE THE REASON WHY MOSHIACH IS STILL NOT HERE!!!!!!
I just have one comment to make regarding all of you that are screaming "ASSUR" and "gehinnom" etc. I am not claiming to be a tzaddik, so please dont label me as hypocritical. But where is there a heter for you tob ereading and posting anything on the internet that is not business related. There are CLEAR takanos and almost EVERY RAV has come out against this and , (we will see if TLS is brave enough to print this) all these so-called "frum news sites. This tznius story may be a topic of interest but it seems to me that everyone has his/her own shulchan aruch to follow when it fits their style and to "ignore" it when they see fit to do so. Lets all learn to STOP being so critical of others until we are doing the right things because I think that ANYONE so worried about the red dress for halachic reasons, wouldnt be spending his time blogging. Instead he would be learning, working, etc.
I'm astounded by the talk here. Women are supposed to dress in a manner that won't attract a males attention. Men who get attracted are not sick or have problems. They are human and Hashem left the obligation to prevent sin in this manner on the women folk! Get it!? The guy who wrote the note is a tzadik.. The husbands who don't care how their wives dress or prefer the provocative attire actually do have a problem. First, ask them if there is a god
Rabbosai ich ken nisht masig zein az se-iz duh etlicheh menner vus kukin oif prusteh meidelach vus hut ungetun roiteh kle'der. V'lo sosuru acharei levavchem ve'acharei eineichem. Rabbosai mir halten mamish mei'chevlei Moshiach, yeder einer darf machin zicher az de froiyin geit arois azoi vi Noshim Tzidkoniyos! Ubefrat Be'ir Hakodesh Lakevood! Vhoyo Machanechuh Kodoish!!
If men can wear trashy clothing then why cant women . My husband chooses to dress like a shlub and shlump, leaving his shirt tail sticking out all the time . He hardly showers in the summers forget about the winter . Fails to use deodorant and refuses to brush his teeth or use mouth wash . You expect me to dress yeshivish too? RED IS THE WAY!
FYI
many members of the Lakewood PD have told me personally that they read the scoop to see whats going on in town. I would suggest that the comments be kept respectable.
Berel Shushan,
The LPD also see you fighting with Ralph Zucker.
Rabbosai ich ken nisht masig zein az se-iz duh etlicheh menner vus kukin oif prusteh meidelach vus hut ungetun roiteh kle'der. V'lo sosuru acharei levavchem ve'acharei eineichem. Rabbosai mir halten mamish mei'chevlei Moshiach, yeder einer darf machin zicher az de froiyin geit arois azoi vi Noshim Tzidkoniyos! Ubefrat Be'ir Hakodesh Lakevood! Vhoyo Machanechuh Kodoish!!
So is wearing a red garment considered like the scarlet letter or something? This must be a joke. And the comments here, they're laughable.
There are more posts regarding this than the Yehuda Green concert!
Anon 731
Naturally. This is more salacious.
anon 653
wow you got me there
I will keep wearing red so lkwd people stop and worry about your wife
i know a MAN that weres a red shirt. is thwt a problom?!?!?
as long as the tefilin are kosis leshmah its not a problem unless you are being motzi someone else in that cas even a blue shirt might be a problem
Don't forget to also throw out that 'roite bendle' your mother or friend got you from 'Kever Rochel'.
GO RED GO! This is like color war....
i am having a very hard time understanding all the posts written by men who are concerned about the tznius of ladies. don't they realize that by them discussing in such detail what is permitted and what is not that this in itself is a major breach in tznius. i'm shocked appaled and disgusted.
The lakewood chader put out a decree today ordering every women to wear long sleave jacket over there clothes with a small v neck.
so, who wants to be on the blue team??!?!?
HUST? HAVE U SINNED TODAY?
Anon 12:05 it was always the men writing the haluches in tzinius in all doros! So stop ur non sense
Red is like a stop and look sign
This whole story is a chillul hashem
What about other bright colors, like yellow, green, blue, orange, purple?
The women have to save the men - like they did by yetzias mitzrayim.
I don't think that a Godol would have written such a letter
Ask Rabbi Forchimer and post his psak
Also men shouldn't stare when they drop off their kids at playgroups its very uncomfortable
The poor husband is creating nothing but problems for himself
Mazel Tov
rabbi forchimer did was the one who made the psak for the women in the cheder to wear long sleve jackets at all times
Why do you even allow comments?
It is positively depressing to think that all these anonymous commenters might be my neighbors, relatives...
I love the read team
rabbi forcheimer made a psak but my rav holds different. please open up your minds and realize that not everyone goes according to your rav. so althought it may be assur for you to wear red, it doesnt mean its assur for everyone else.
Is it muttar to have a red car?
It looks like everyone got a little carried away. The letter was about a neighbor writing a letter to him about his wifes red shirt, the question was about if the letter was approtiate in this case or not.the one writing the letter never gave an opinion if what his wife was doing was right or wrong , but about the neighbor sticking their nose into his personal life between him and his wife. Personally I never realize what any of my neighbors wifes are wearing. Not because I am a big tzaddik, but rather because there is so much worse pritzus today among the goyim you see on the way from your house to yeshiva , that only a real pervert is looking at exactly my neighbors wife is or isn't wearing. This is besides for the fact that in all probabilty the holy letter writer has a house on the block that is rented to mexicans that ghas 20 woman that go around half undressed , and we could only wish that they woulkd cover their skin with some red garments. This is besides the fact that all of us on the internet and those that are in the workforce are exposed everyday to things much worse than red shirts. If your looking at your neighbors wife it is because you cannot control your eyes and you should work on yourself. Stop blaming other people for you issues. Their is no protection for someone who cannot control their eyes these days because its not this ladies fault , its your problem. I am not saying what she is doing is ok, but you have to take care of your problem, and not stick your nose into your neighbors buissness. If you had worked yourself out properly you would never have realized what she was wearing. Therefore there is no reason here that you can stick your nose into their private life.
I have only ever heard 1 valid claim to stick ones nose in, in a realated issue and had the letter been written differently to address that issue I would agree with the letter writer. The issue is about wives of people in kollel who dress clearly not tniusdik , and that other people unmarried daughters see them and think that if a kollel wife can dress like they should also be able too and they will even marry a kollel guy just like their trashy dressing neighbor did. This is a very valid issue because unlike men who should be working on themselves not to look at women, these girls are encouraged to look up to kollel wives as role models. If that was the case the letter would be ok.parents of girls have a right to voice their opinion to people who are not being good rile models. kollel wives must be role models to unmarried girls , and if they cannot they should move out of lkwd.
Btw the gemara about the red dress is as follows, one of the amoroim say a lady wearing a full red dress. She was not jewish , but he thought she was jewish.he became so made that he ripped it off her in public.the gemara then discuss the consiquences.
I think you have to learn this gemara with a grain of salt , because if not soon you will have this guy ripping of his neighbors clothes if he doesn't like what she is wearing.
the gemara is Berachos (20a) and the story is with R' Adda bar Ahavha . i guess if you will learn from it that REd is usser , you can learn it is mutter to rip it off. BTW he had to pay her 400 zuz for embarrasing her. maybe the guy who wrote the letter should have to pay 4 kollel checks for embarrasing this guy.
I would like to give my opinion on this issue. 1. I feel that there is nothing wrong with the letter and the husband was stupid for posting it. He should have made a cheshbon hanefesh with his wife and come to the right conclusions. 2. We all have the yetzer horah that tries to get us to do aveiros. I, as a ben torah not being a pervert am attracted to women and this is very natural. I work very hard on myself to keep my eyes on my own wife but sometimes women are very provocative and it hurts me. I was recently told by a women in lakewood that she dresses to kill. She dresses so that everyone should look at her. Obviously there is something very wrong with her and her hashkofa but we must know that there are women out there that seek to get us to look at them. 3. A certain family in lakewood that I know is having a hard time getting their daughter into school this year because the wife dresses in a very provocative way. Though she realizes that she has a problem, and she is trying to correct this, the impression on the street is one of a family that does not oblige to the torah rules of tznius. The husband is a very feine baal haabos who is koveiya eetim and the are getting hurt very seriously by her behaviour. It hurts us in the community to know that she is not accepted and I hope that others learn from this that the yeshivos will be very makpid on who they take in.
To the woman who dresses "trendy". There is nothing wrong with dressing trendy if it does not attract attention. If it does, it is a serious breach of tznius. No, I am not surprised if yeshivish men look at a woman dressed "trendy". They are human, not malochim. I am a yungerman who worked for years on shemiras einayim and there are still situation where my initial reaction is to look. Please don't be machshil others. Listen to Rabbi Orlofsky's tape "platonic relationships" and then you will ungerstand what goes through a man's mind when a woman dresses in such a manner.
I call for the Tznius Police. We can publicly shame people and stone repeat offenders.
I thought this was America, the freedom to choose what to wear, what to say, and what to believe in.
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