(Photo of actual note) Dear Editor, I’d like to share the following true episode and request feedback from your loyal readers. Last week, as I walked out of Dr. Shanik’s office, a strange man approached my just 3 year old who was holding my hand. He handed my son a piece of paper and said “Give this to your mother.” Thinking it was a receipt that fell out of my pocketbook, I put in back into my pocket. Upon starting the car, I took out the “receipt” and stared. Written on a flap of an envelope, it said “your skirt does not cover your nees in back.” Now, o.k. I am careful to uphold the tznius standard and I would not even be offended if a woman would point out to me that my skirt does not cover properly when I sit or neck is too low etc. At that moment, horror and shock filled me or truthfully, for a while. I understand the well meaning behind it. But is it appropriate for a strange Lakewood yungerman to write a note and give it to my son – with his message (his two cents). Ladies! How would you react if your husband shared with you what he did on his way out of the Dr. office with your child?? He stared after a woman and even let her know!!!Dear Readers, What do you say??Still shocked,
Anonymous (for obvious reasons)
P.S. I’m enclosing the original “infamous” paper.
Thank you,
114 comments:
I think it was a very nice way of telling you. Unfortunately it seems that there are a lot of people in your category & no one seems to let them know, since they don't seem to change their ways.
the last 2 words are "in back"
ALL YOU SICK PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE SO FRUM SHUT UP AND LET PPL LIVE, DO YOU THINK SHE DOESNT KNOW?
Your a sick mind, you sound like your dreaming and hoping that it gets to that point so you could go out and be MOICHA! and satisfy your personal pleasures. STOP STARING AT WOMEN! AND GET YOURSELF A JOB!
What about the 'tznius' women that are so yeshivish looking that their all over the place. Their hair 'yeshivashly' out of their 20 year old snoods ( elastic is long gone). I dont have to spell everything out
i very often sit in shanicks office and see women sitting with their knees on show! they make no effort to fix it or cover it and im no 'frummy' but to be real honest i am disgusted!
The bottom line, he meant well, and he said it in a way where no one should feel offended. It's hard not to notice somebody else, even harder to tell someone Mussar without offending them.
lady, ur 1000% wrong!!
im what you would consider "flatbush-type working guy" NOT yeshivish at all, and wear color shirts etc.
so for starters im NO "frummie"
answer this question honestly, why do you dress provacativly?? dont lie to yourself - you know the truth!!! this guy is a tzadik in my opionin. My guess is when he saw your provactive dress, and may have saw some skin, as all normal men, his hormones leveles were up. and he didnt want to be nichsal.
you dressing in a provacative way, is your way of advertising your body to other men!! stop and think!! think deep, and you will see the truth.
That said, us men have enough nisyonos going on, do your part & dress your part
your wrong he's right: i agree with u 100%!!! it is very hard for guys to see a woman who is attractive. the nisayon is unbearable.
He is a tzaddik, we need more people like him around.
is this what they mean by a knee jerk reaction??
Rabbosai.. I think this can be a good forum to discuss this problem as long as one stays within the boundaries...we can all agree that tsnius has become a big prob here in Lakewood. As more and more diverse people move into the community this has become a bigger issue. I disagree though the way this person handled it. The women of this town have the achrais to know that they are living in a community of bnei toirah and they have to dress to code.
As a woman I think you men are disgusting even talking about this you should mind your own business and keep your heads in the gemorah and out of the skirts!
"As a woman I think you men are disgusting even talking about this you should mind your own business and keep your heads in the gemorah and out of the skirts!"
mamm, your soooo childish, and looking away at the truth, i wont even bother to respond to your silly remark!!
To anon woman; get real we don’t always walk around with a gemorah. I suspect you are one of those guilty of being nichshal the rabim. You will give a din vchsehbin for that you know?
Here is my opinion, as a woman!
This guy did the right thing.
The standards of Tznius in Lakewood have plummeted so much so fast. Something must be done.
Let us look at this carefully. There are two options.
1 - You didn't realize that you were not dressed properly.
2 - You deliberately dress that way.
If the answer is number 1, you should be thankful that he informed you in such an aidel way. Imagine if you had a large and disgusting stain on your back. Wouldn't you be horrified finding out that many people saw and no one told you? Dressing pritzusdik is a thousand times more.
If the answer is number 2, there is no need for discussion. You are simply an avaryonis in public. It is no different than sitting in Dr. Shanik's office eating a cheese burger!
There is nothing to discuss.
The gemarah tells us that the reason the earlier Tana'im were able to perform miracles and not the later ones, was because the earlier ones were moiser nefesh for Torah.
The example the gemarah gives is that a woman was wearing a red scarf in public and Rebbe Yehudah tore it off of her! For this he was zoiche to make miracles!!!
We see clearly from this gemarah that it is the correct thing for a man to do something about the situation.
Nowadays, tearing an article of clothing off a woman is probably not to be done, but to inform you via a note to your kid is very smart and nice.
This yungerman should be commended!
My non-Jewish co-worker asked me last week why the Ultra-Orthodox women in Lakewood dress so slutty.
He simply couldn't understand it.
Frankly, I had no good answer.
It was a very sticky moment in the office and a HUGE chillul Hashem!
Dear owner of blog,
I think you should edit what you wrote - "I’m enclosing the original “infamous” paper."
Infamous means famous for bad.
The note is good!!!!
B"H we still have people in our rapidly declining town that care about yiddishkeit.
Quote from post:
But is it appropriate for a strange Lakewood yungerman to write a note and give it to my son – with his message (his two cents). Ladies! How would you react if your husband shared with you what he did on his way out of the Dr. office with your child?? He stared after a woman and even let her know!!!Dear Readers, What do you say??
**************
1-It is appropriate. He did what was right even if you don't feel that way.
2-Don't call his note "2 cents". This note is worth millions in Olam Haba. He did something very uncomfortable for him simply to inform you of your (possibly inadvertent) transgression of our holy Torah. And he did it icely without embarrassing you.
3-Why do say he stared at you? Are you really so naive as to think that men don't notice when we dress provocatively? Get real.
ATTN: all woman who must dress flashy and feel the urge to show themselfs off to other men by by wearing tight fitted, short, provactive, etc etc -MOVE OUT OF TOWN!!
goto the 5 towns, teneck, or wherever the'll welcome you with open arms (literly)
YOUR NOT WELCOME HERE!! its about time a "man" stood up to your uncontrollable urges!!
may he be blessed!
you should be embarrased of yourselfs -
BTW: this includes many of the wifes of the lakewoods "askanim"
all you big shot "askonim" be an asken in your house first!!
Shloimy said...
Dear owner of blog,
I think you should edit what you wrote - "I’m enclosing the original “infamous” paper."
the blog owner didnt write that-it's from that lady.
omg the ladies in lkwd are desperate to attract men its unbelieveable. when will they realize that it is pathetic cuz at the end of the day anyone who got attracted to you forgot abt you.
In Dr. Shaniks office there is a special section for men only therefore you don't have to sit in the main area and sit opposite the women and stare at their legs I don't disagree with this youngerman but he should have been sitting in the men only section and if his kids wanted to watch the video ho should have watched it too.
"and if his kids wanted to watch the video ho should have watched it too."
Typical naive lady-talk.
Men are human beings. Even if he sits and watches the video, or is learning from a sefer, he will still periodically lift his head. Wake up. All it takes is one fleeting glance to notice.
I'm sick and tired of women walking around like sluts and whores, but if anyone says anything, they react "why are you looking?".
We are not looking, but we are not blind either.
Hello??????
Baruch Hashem most of the comments are pro the yungerman's actions.
There is still a glimmer of hope for "our" Lakewood. A Lakewood that was a haven for frum, Ehrlich, and tzanua people.
Instead of ladies asking why men notice, they should be making a cheshbon hanefesh on why so many ladies openly flaunt the halachos of tznius.
It is worse than eating pork in public. At least when eating pork you are only destroying yourself. By breaking hilchos tznius you are affecting many men who see, many women who feel pressure to be dressed like the "in-crowd", and our youth who learn that yiddishkeit is all a farce - because once a lady is out of school she can do whatever she wants and do it openly.
Rachmana Litzlan.
"and if his kids wanted to watch the video ho should have watched it too."
******
An earlier comment already dismissed your ridiculous statement.
But more importantly, you completely missed the boat. Even if he should not have noticed, why are women breaking tznius halachos left and right?
Why? Why? Why?
I think we need a blog that will call out people who dress like whores. And if they get disgusted with us and leave Lakewood, all the better!
What about their approving husbands? They are just as responsible.
Where are all the sluts and whores? i never see them,
I live in Lakewood, was around town today and all the woman i saw were dressed tzniusdik.
"Where are all the sluts and whores? i never see them,
I live in Lakewood, was around town today and all the woman i saw were dressed tzniusdik."
**********
Either you are joking, are blind, or are so desensitized that you no longer realize what is tznius and what is not.
Everytime i go to Bagel Nosh i see how the woman are staring at the other woman worse then the guys, its really disgusting ,
im a guy , does anyone else notice this?
faigy im not blind at all, just a healthy guy who notices it all , its blown out of proportion, not looking frumpy does not mean youre dressed like a slut
Sir, I'm a woman. I know what some of my friends are dressing like. And it is totally against Halacha.
Someone just sent me a link to this blog. Frankly, if these comments are "real", this comment page is quite shocking. Tznius or no tznius, the way so many of you people think and write is so sadly crude, base and smugly self-righteous. truly "off-the-derech".
"the way so many of you people think and write is so sadly crude, base and smugly self-righteous".
Did you ever hear of "im naval, tisnabal"? or the vengeance of pinchas?!
sometimes you MUST be crude when dealing with crude people, rachamana litzlan!
if Pinchas earned eternal reward for killing a person bec. of tznius, surely it is incumbent on us to at least write a note!
We have just been informed by our rabbinical board, that although it was ok to post the article, many comments(which have not been posted) are extremely out of hand. Some comments have been posted and have been deleted as well. Feel free to express yourself, but please do so in a respectful manner. Thank you.
"the way so many of you people think and write is so sadly crude, base and smugly self-righteous. truly "off-the-derech"."
************
Typical talk from people who can not understand how others, in today's day and age, actually fight their battles with the yezter hara instead of succumbing to them.
Hey healthy guy.you say "not looking frumpy does not mean youre dressed like a slut"
There's a huge gap between dressing "frumpy" or nebuchdik (snood covering the eye brows etc) and dressing like a slut. There's middle ground to look put togeter, without looking nebby and without dressing provacatively. Unfortunatly, many woman in lakewood say "just cause I don't dress like a "fanchukta" frummak dosent mean I'm not tznius" and they use that as an excuse to look like a zoyna!! Yes a zoyna mamish!! I see goyim in the workplce - dressed much more tzniusdik (and they don't come across nerdy) then many prancing around lakewood!
And the poster who pointed out the wives of "askunim" is so dead on! These askunim wives are a descrase! Askunis starts at home to your wives and daughters.
?Typical talk from people who can not understand how others, in today's day and age, actually fight their battles with the yezter hara instead of succumbing to them."
fighting battles with their yetzer hara, or fighting battles with complete strangers? when one starts identifying other people with "the yetzer hara", there is big trouble (see, muslim extremism). for G-ds sake, look INWARD, please!
We do look inward, inward at our tight-knit community.
Keep your "open" Orthodoxy away from us.
As a woman, I must agree with the pro-guy stance. But I feel all posts on all these blogs are just a waste of time bashing other people. Perhaps, we can have something constructive come from this entire saga.
I'm not sure how it has come to this point where so many former "Bais Yaakov" girls, now Lakewood wives, are at the point where their skirts are barely covering their "nees" (knees) a basic halacha in tznius we've all grown up with.
So, let's turn the course of these comments to coming up with ways to do something about this all. For some reason, when it comes to tznius gatherings, you'll find the four-inch below the knee and snood covering the eyes there mostly.
Perhaps, they should arrange these tznius speeches at all the gala Chinese auctions and events where you'll find the rest of Lakewood women who could use some strengthening and return to tznius. Unless, there are people who can actually speak and get places with proprietors of stores that sell these immodest clothes. I was in one of these stores yesterday, there was not a single skirt that would properly cover my knees and I'm 5'4", aside for the the fact that the X-Large tops would fit a toothpick.
So instead of bashing... let's do something.
Anonymous woman 11:29 -
Very good comment. But what is there to do? These ladies can not be forced to listen to tznius speeches. Even if there would be speeches at these chinese auctions, these type of women would just show up after the speeches, no?
Maybe it's an "infamous" note because he can't spell knees. In any case this is nothing more than coffee room fodder. Men are men, women should follow rules of tznius and everyone should be a little less sensitive and touchy if someone gives them constructive criticism.
Anonymous 11:45 -
Unfortunately, it is a lot more serious than that.
We are witnessing a decline in tznous, perhaps unparalleled in Jewish history.
I am in Chinuch and Marital counseling and I can only say this: our internal situation (in this area and it's outgrowths) is bad, very very bad.
Let's start naming names of stores that cater to these "frum" woman, and sell provacative clothing! Woman (wheter intentionally or not) walk in there not even thinking if the clothing is tznius or not. They are machshil es harabim and must be singled out publicly!! If NPGS would chv"s sell treif or even questionably kosher items ppl would be up in arms! Ppl walk in to the kosher grocery and don't bother looking for a hasgacha bec its a "jewish store",they assume everything sold there is automaticly kosher. The same goes with a "jewish" clothing store, ppl automticly assume its kosher! The owners of these stores know exactly what styles they sell, and are very awere of their clientelle.I urge magazines like BP, the voice, etc to reject any ads from these "treife" stores - just as they wouldn't dare advertise a questionable resteraunt etc. I think the first store to be delt with is TABEZZ in the shoprite plazza!! I walked in there once (I'm a normal"with it" lady - orig from fltbush) - and was sick to see all these woman looking for the most showy, flirty outfits! There wasn't one thing I would considur tznius in that store!! And again I don't cover my eye brows.
Let our voices be heard, "we won't tolarate stores who feed garbage to our sisters be in business!!
I dont understand something. If so many of you have such problems with the way people dress in Lakewood, why not break off and start a separate and new community allowing membership only to those who fit your standards?
wouldn't that be more pleasant
and b'kavodik as opposed to policing and enforcing unwelcome restrictions on strangers who dont see the same as you?
I dont understand something. If so many of you have such problems with the way people dress in Lakewood, why not break off and start a separate and new community allowing membership only to those who fit your standards?
wouldn't that be more pleasant
and b'kavodik as opposed to policing and enforcing unwelcome restrictions on strangers who dont see the same as you?
********************
What you conveniently forget is that Lakewood was always a town of true ehrlich and tznius bnei Torah.
Why should we leave if people with low standards move in?
Why should 50 years of work go up in smoke?!
These newcomers should conform to the Lakewood standards or don't live here.
If a hundred modern families moved to New Square, would you also tell the Skvere Rebbe and all his chasidim to move out? Huh?
"What you conveniently forget is that Lakewood was always a town of true ehrlich and tznius bnei Torah."
What YOU conveniently forget is that America was always a town of democracy and freedom to choose.
"These newcomers should conform to the Lakewood standards or don't live here."
According to this logic, so should have all frum Jews as newcomers 50 years ago in America. They should have conformed to the standards of American secular society or "dont live here".
"These newcomers should conform to the Lakewood standards or don't live here."
Has Lakewood been purchased by the yeshiva world from the United States government?
maybe there was some form of kinyan i wasn't aware of.
if not, the borders of Lakewood are open to all, sorry.
from dani18.com/index.php?show=ZEREK104E
a quote from someone who died & what they showed him in Shamayim,
"They placed her in a large blackest pot and the black angels in the black room with all its black walls beat her up because she caused men to sin. I saw she regretted all her sins but it was too late and now she was worthless. She was so black and shriveled - she looked like a piece of rag."
"Women that wear provocative clothing, including so-called modest tight clothing that reveal the shape of her body, I saw how they suffer in the world of truth. She goes to gehenei Gehenom as well as the store owner! The Creator of the World hates immodest women! A person that sells immodest clothing is secluded in pain. There are many rooms for people that sell immodest clothing. In these rooms, they are secluded. They cannot move or speak.
Oy to women that wear these kind of clothing, those wigs, and think they are religious while walking the streets and showing strange men their beauty. And meanwhile, her poor husband is in the Kollel but he too will get Gehenom! Whomever does not believe, can ask me personally. I'll meet with him and tell him why he will be placed in Gehenom, r'l. He gave his wife permission to seduce strange men! Who gave him such permission???? First of all, he should abandon his Gemara and come home and clean out his wife's closet, the tight clothing, the revealing shirts, the short skirts with slits, the wigs. They are worse than the seculars. Shamayim told me this! A secular woman goes out totally immodest so she is unfortunate because she knows no better. But the religious women go out on purpose to attract strange men's attention. She walks the streets with her baby carriage and makes all kind of poses and her clothing are very attractive and she attracts attention, r'l. You see her body thru the clothing and you start having all kinds of imaginations. In Shamayim, this is loathed because it's destructive. The Creator of the World is angry at this!
And the wigs they wear are a joke - they wear someone else's hair. And those beautiful big hats that seek attention. In short, whatever the woman wears that is conspicuous and causes men to look at her, she is in trouble - she is finished! A woman should dress like a queen inside her home only for her husband to enjoy and outside she should wear baggy clothing not to cause even one man to look at her. A woman who does this is a Tzaddeket! How dare a woman go out of her house with a wig or an immodest kerchief that reveals her hair? It's scary. In the world of truth, it's real fear, deathly fear. She attracts half the city and the most important thing to her is to be beautiful outside her home. In Shamayim, she will not be beautiful! Black angels will place her in a large black pot in a black room with its black walls and they will burn her because of her wig. She went out in the streets with a purpose that men should look at her, therefore, she has no merits!
I saw a woman that revealed her legs and for her punishment, they caught her by legs and threw her like she was a rag and they hung her upside down on steel pipes and blood drips down and she is yelling for help but there is no help for her."
http://dani18.com/index.php?show=ZEREK104E
Lady! and everyone else out there, you totaly missed the boat. instead of worrying about your dress your worrying about him?? take care of your tznius before you try to take care of his
What you conveniently forget is that Lakewood was always a town of true ehrlich and tznius bnei Torah.
Why should we leave if people with low standards move in?
..............
JUST WONDERING IF ANY OF HE BLOGGERS YELLING AND SCREAMING ABOUT HOW THIS TOWN IS SO TRUE / ERLICH SND SO BUSY WITH BNEI TORAH, ARE YOU FROM THE INVESTORS ON CLIFTON AVE. THAT ARE RENTING OUT TO THE MOST SHMUTZIG OF GOYIM IN THE DOWNTOWN OF LAKEWOOD, OR IN A PRIVATE HOUSE BETWEEN FRUM PPL????? JUST 3 BLOCKS AWAY FROM 1 OF THE BIGGEST YESHIVAS IN THE WORLD????IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT YOUR KIDS TO LOOK AT WHEN THEY WALK HOME FROM SCHOOL???
HOW NICE WOULD IT BE TO SEE FRUM STORES STAY ON CLIFTON AVE AND HAVE FRUM SHOPPERS SHOP(AND YES I MEAN EVEN THE FRUM WOMAN FROM DR. SHANKIS OFFICE) AS OPPOSED TO SEEING THE LOWEST OF THE LOW!!!!!!!!
I GUESS $$$$$ DOES CONTROL U, AND YOU DONT REALLY CARE ABOUT THE HOLLINESS OF THE TOWN, ALL U CARE ABOUT IS YUR POCKETS
A 'lotta' 'tumelt' and nothing said.
The issue is very simple - The young woman who recieved the note (and many others in town) just do NOT believe that there is a G-D on this world who knows what you do and what you are thinking at each and every moment.
All the notes ,all the 'tznius' gatherings and all the chinuch are in vain as long as one does not believe. And the proof is in how they dress and walk. Period.
Who is the Rabbinical board of a internet site in Lakewood? Who in Lakewood approves a blog site? Do they have a ishur? Are the in it for parnasah?
"I saw a woman that revealed her legs and for her punishment, they caught her by legs and threw her like she was a rag and they hung her upside down on steel pipes and blood drips down and she is yelling for help but there is no help for her."
great stuff. whoever wrote this brilliance- were you ever employed by the Spanish Inquisition?
"What YOU conveniently forget is that America was always a town of democracy and freedom to choose.
According to this logic, so should have all frum Jews as newcomers 50 years ago in America. They should have conformed to the standards of American secular society or "dont live here".".
***************
Apparently, you simply are not frum.
You compare yidden conforming to goyim to ydden conforming to yiddishkeit.
Such a comparison should never have made it on a frum site.
No, yidden who are frum do not conform to goyim. And yidden who are from keep hilchos tznius.
"JUST WONDERING IF ANY OF HE BLOGGERS YELLING AND SCREAMING ABOUT HOW THIS TOWN IS SO TRUE / ERLICH SND SO BUSY WITH BNEI TORAH, ARE YOU FROM THE INVESTORS ON CLIFTON AVE. THAT ARE RENTING OUT TO THE MOST SHMUTZIG OF GOYIM IN THE DOWNTOWN OF LAKEWOOD, OR IN A PRIVATE HOUSE BETWEEN FRUM PPL????? JUST 3 BLOCKS AWAY FROM 1 OF THE BIGGEST YESHIVAS IN THE WORLD????IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT YOUR KIDS TO LOOK AT WHEN THEY WALK HOME FROM SCHOOL???
HOW NICE WOULD IT BE TO SEE FRUM STORES STAY ON CLIFTON AVE AND HAVE FRUM SHOPPERS SHOP(AND YES I MEAN EVEN THE FRUM WOMAN FROM DR. SHANKIS OFFICE) AS OPPOSED TO SEEING THE LOWEST OF THE LOW!!!!!!!!
I GUESS $$$$$ DOES CONTROL U, AND YOU DONT REALLY CARE ABOUT THE HOLLINESS OF THE TOWN, ALL U CARE ABOUT IS YUR POCKETS".
**************
The answer is no. I have nothing to do with investing, investors and the like.
While I agree that investors are harming our town, there is no question that when frum people do things wrong in public (for example not-tznius) it had a far more detrimental affect on us than non-Jewish influence.
The enemy from within is always worse.
Besides, seeing an Hispanic woman in jeans and a t-shirt is a lot less arousing than how many of "our" women unfortunately dress.
"great stuff. whoever wrote this brilliance- were you ever employed by the Spanish Inquisition?"
No. But I'm a frum yid, something you are clearly not.
One of the 13 principles of faith is believing in reward and punishment.
If you deny it, you are an apikores. It's the plain and simple truth.
Gemaros and Zohar are full of gruesome descriptions of punishments in gehinom. Did you ever learn Reishis Chochma?
Rachmana litzlon!! What is going on here!
"No. But I'm a frum yid, something you are clearly not."
if by "frum yid" you mean belief in afterlife medieval torture chambers, you are right. G-d help us.
"If you deny it, you are an apikores. It's the plain and simple truth. Gemaros and Zohar are full of gruesome descriptions of punishments in gehinom."
its this kind of talk that will continue sending our children straight off the derech. keep up the good work.
i hate when the ladies get all dressed up. it is so hard for me to control myself. im crying out to all ladies "please dont put me in a trap to do aveiros, the tayva is unbearable and i dont want to be nichshal"
I too am frum and believe in the afterlife, reward and punishment.
Mr. Anonymous 12:04 should have his comment deleted.
Earlier some lewd comments were deleted after the blog owner asked a shaila.
Having pure kfira is just as bad, if not worse.
Dear blog owner, PLEASE PLEASE do not allow open kfira!
LADIES PLEASE ....ICH KEN NISCHT OIS HALTEN PLEASE ...NO TIGHT CLOTHES !!PLEASE I AM ENTITLED TO WALK THE STREETS TOO PLEASE PLEASE
How about we make a deal...
when all you self-righteous bonzos stop surfing the internet (which as you well know if quite assur by the gedolim's standards) and doing G-d knows what on here at 1am in the morning, then the ladies can start thinking about dressing more modestly.
when all you self-righteous bonzos stop surfing the internet (which as you well know if quite assur by the gedolim's standards) and doing G-d knows what on here at 1am in the morning, then the ladies can start thinking about dressing more modestly.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
NO DEAL MISTER!!
two wrongs dont make a right! period!
Besides not everyone in LKWD uses the internet the way you use it.
"two wrongs dont make a right! period! Besides not everyone in LKWD uses the internet the way you use it."
you completely miss the point.
at the very same time these Lkwd men on here point fingers at the "nontznius ladies", and blaming them for their "taavos" for an uncovered knee, they're right here on the web inevitably exposing themselves to so much worse. can u see any inherent hypocrisy?
or is it too comfortable to simply blame others for your own deep chesronos?
"when all you self-righteous bonzos stop surfing the internet (which as you well know if quite assur by the gedolim's standards) and doing G-d knows what on here at 1am in the morning, then the ladies can start thinking about dressing more modestly."
**********
Typical "trying-to-stay-comfortable-with-my limited observance-level" rubbish.
Oh, I should keep Shabbos? Maybe you should be learning all day and not noticing my chilul Shabbos.
Oh, I should not eat treif? Maybe you should first not go on a trip where there may be pritzus.
Etc, etc, ad nauseum.
If someone points out a wrong - especially a horrible terrible wrong, one which causes Hashem to take away his protection from us, as stated EXPLICITLY in the Torah - the reaction should be gratitude to Hashem that people are trying to improve and actually care about yiddishkeit.
The silly knee-jerk "you also have flaws" argument is usually not used by a person above a fifth grade level of maturity.
Let's keep this in proper perspective. We are discussing an issue which is dvorim ha'omdim brumu shel olam!!!
I am in total shock and can not believe how an argument about tznius has now become an argument of believing in schar veonesh!!!
I guess an earlier comment [anonymous 10:51 AM] was correct when he/she wrote that these women and their male supporters simply do not believe in Hashem.
Look how quickly they go from defending pritzus to calling schar vaonesh stuff from the Inquisition.
Hashem help us.
"I saw a woman that revealed her legs and for her punishment, they caught her by legs and threw her like she was a rag and they hung her upside down on steel pipes and blood drips down and she is yelling for help but there is no help for her."
Honestly now, is this description truly a fundamental part of your emunah concerning schar v'onesh?
To quote several of you already,
Rachmana Litzlan!
I will do my best to daven for the
future of your and all of our children. otherwise, we are heading towards either severe mental illness or what will surely be ultimately a rejection of all "real" Torah-values.
Have you ever opened a Zohar or a Reisheis Chochma? How about the Ramban's Sha'ar Hagmul?
I guess all of our ancestors - millions of pure yiddishe mammas and tattes - suffered mental illness.
Well, I'd rather be in their company, which includes all the believing Jews since the Torah was given, and be called mentally ill - than be in your company.
How sad to realize that so many of you have no connection to real Torah values. Judaism has become a way of "doing" instead of a way of "being" - a religion like any other. I would comment on the issue at hand, but i just don't know where to start. It's seems impossible to deal with one micro issue, when all of the precepts and fundamental principles of the Torah are missing. Does anybody know what Tznius means? Does anyone know why Tznius and Kinah are opposites, not Tznius and Pritzus? (Rachel -Yosef - Shaul - Esther versus Yosef's Brothers etc.) I'll leave it at that...
Uri Ort -
Say what you want, but it won't change any facts.
Dressing provocatively is against Halacha.
While all your lofty platitudes about tznius and kinah may be true, and even if your astonishing sweeping accusation is true, you still better know the Shulchan Aruch.
A skirt above the knees is beyond the pale.
Fascinating how Uri Ort sees people who still actually care about keeping the laws of the Torah, and don't want to be influenced into doing aveiris, as "having no connection to real Torah values".
I guess we have different religions.
This blog is sickening. I have never heard a group of frum people speak so crassly, (i.e. descriptions of torture of women). How about all this loshon hara? To name the flaws of a location is also loshon hara (see Chofetz Chaim books). There are finer ways of dealing with these issues, as well as expressing frustrations within a community. There is a difference between zealotry and out right anger.
I am writing as a Lakewood woman. I would have been embarrassed if a man would have sent me such a note, albeit in such a manner. However in spite of my embarrassment, I would have to admit he was right. Too many women in lakewood dress provocatively, even to the point where the Goyish men stare at them as they parade around. If it had been me, to whom the note was written, I would have thanked him and tried to dress more carefully from then on.I don't think most Yeshivishe men make a habit of staring at Jewish women, but, they unless they walk with their heads down or with blinders on, they can't help but notice the way the women dress. That is why we women have to be very careful that what we wear should not expose body parts that should not be seen, and our shapes should not reveal too much either. We should be careful not to let our hair sneak out of our head coverings and our sheitels should not be long and alluring.If we women of Lakewood would try harder to dress more properly then maybe it will have a Roshem in Shomayim and help speed the coming of Moshiach.
Tsniusdik Lakewood Woman -
Thank you for your wonderful comment.
Lady what did you husband have to say about it?
"This blog is sickening."
I guess you find the Torah sickening too, r"l.
"I have never heard a group of frum people speak so crassly, (i.e. descriptions of torture of women."
Did you bother looking at the Seforim quoted above that describe similar punishments for all aveiros, men included?
Before you leave a comment, do your research. Besides, you'll get a Mitzvah of Talmud Torah too.
"How about all this loshon hara? To name the flaws of a location is also loshon hara (see Chofetz Chaim books)."
So when Rabbonim speak out against something it is Lashon Harah? When someone fulfills the Mitzvah of Tochacha, it is Lashon Harah?
Please learn Sefer Chafetz Chaim, which you claim to quote, to find out the truth.
"There are finer ways of dealing with these issues, as well as expressing frustrations within a community."
True. However, these women and their male supporters do not listen to anyone or anything. As a lady wrote above, these women don't even show up at the town's Tznius rallies.
"There is a difference between zealotry and out right anger."
Exactly, and I highly doubt you know where to draw the line. There is no doubt in my mind you would have labeled Pinchos an angry fanatic. I'm sure after you learn Sha'ar Hagmul of the Ramban you will think of the Ramban as angry too.
Nebach!
cmon ladies u could dress up in ur house for ur husband. y should everyone get to c u looking really yummy, let it be specifically for ur husband!
y is no one commenting on this anymore????
i think your all nuts and should stop repressing your women and your yourselves, you are all mindless drones who can't think or express themselves freely....G-d doesn't love you more for following a strict dresscode, eating habits, ect. he loves us all equally-get over yourselves and leave this woman alone
Please PLEASE PLEASE I beg all you woman to dress tzniusdik. I am a yungerman with terrible tayvos, which r"l I cant controll. You dont realize what ur doing to me and other ehrlich yungerman like me. Yuo are choteh u'machteh es ha'rabim. I see you in the strets and I try so hard and I daven and I try to focus on verses of tehilim but its imposibel to not see you even for a moment. When this hapens I cant stop thinking about you and the way you looked (even if it's "just" a knee). My learning is ruined for the day I simpley cant consentrate. When my toyvas get so bad worse happens and you cause me to sin in one of the worst ways a man can sin. PLEASE stop making us yungerman sin!!!! Hashem Yeracheim!
Come on! this really goes over the red line! If a guy is so much about tznius - he should not look at a woman, especially lower her neck! And he should try to escape places where he may see any woman so not to get any dirty thoughts. That's why in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch it says a guy ma y not work in kindergarten so he doesn't all those young moms coming to pick up their kids. It's a guys problem - not kid's mom!
Yes, i am into that a woman should have skirt long enough to cover her knees sitting, but this will be ONLY between me and my wife.
If a woman is wearing a skirt that doesn't fit one's standards it doesn't mean she breaks any rules.
I think you misunderstood his compliment.
To argue here would be pointless, everyone will argue back, so I just have this to say. If youre all so frum and learn every few seconds, and listen to the rabbanim so carefully, then why are you on the internet? solution: You couldnt care less about the rabbanim if its against your agenda.
I would send the scrap back, corrected in red ink, and add a comment like "Do something for your orthography before you look at women's knees. That's more urgent."
Sh- "yidden who are frum keep hilchos tznius"
I'd like you to go look up hilchos tznius in the KS"A and tell me what you find. Then tell me whether you actually know if people keep it or not.
To the rest of you- No, he should not have been looking. Yes, it is natural to give a glance. Then he should avert his eyes. If he did that, he's fine. And if he told her in a tznius way, and in a way that did not embarrass her, he is fine. Kol hakavod lo for doing what I never get the guts to do. Women should not dress provocatively outside the house. They do so in order to attract attention, which is the very opposite of tznius.
Ladies and gentlemen, have you noticed that we are all on the treifineh internet ...
nuff said.
Anon 3:28- I happen to be Chabad, and I try to use the internet for good. Internet is something that can go either way (agav, same with every other physical thing, from eating to the issue of men looking at women), and there's no reason to avoid the internet if you can be elevating it instead.
Like Homer says-
It's funny 'cause I don't know them.
It is forbidden to gaze upon a woman according to all poskim -so how did this idiot notice???
It's sad to think that there are Jewish men with so little self-control or mental discipline that the sight of the back of a woman's knee leaves them highly aroused and unable to control themselves. I suppose that since our men can't seem to keep their eyes off the bodies of other men's wives, the only solution will be to insist that all our women must wear burkas when they leave the house. It works for the Taliban, and we all know what a wonderful society they created when they were in power.
Not gonna bother reading the 95 comments.
One, you should disable anonymous commenting. Bunch of cowards who spew venom but hide their names.
Two, in your place, though I am a guy, I would turn to the guy and yell "Keep your eyes to yourself!"
HE SHOULD NOT BE LOOKING AT HER
THE END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The problem is obviously with HIM!!! Of course.
This is all very bizarre.
First of all, I object to Jewish women in Lakewood being described as dressing like whores. Clearly, you do not know what whores dress like. This is a good thing. If you do know what whores dress like, then you have no right to comment in the way you do. You have your own modesty issues.
Now, the description that religious women dress less modestly than non-Jewish women in the workplace is unfair.
I'm a religious woman in a secular workplace. And let me tell you, that striking a balance is hard because we have to wear skirts. Those oh-so-modest non-Jewish women are wearing trousers, probably loose and modest, but pants nonetheless.
I have to wear a skirt. I feel very awkward and immodest about exposing my lower legs in an office, but I don't have a choice, because I need to look businesslike, and I can't do that in an ankle-length skirt.
I do not have similar reservations about lower-leg exposure in the street because, quite frankly, I'm comparatively tame. If any guy can walk past a billboard and the Hispanic women on the street, they can handle my calves.
If a guy finds the back of a woman's knees provocative, then I have to say, he's got trouble. Either he needs more exposure to knee-backs so he becomes inured, or he needs to get married so he has different things on his mind, or he needs psychological help.
That said, I agree that women need to be careful how they dress and that all sides of their knees are covered. But our silly "hilchos" tznius that the schools invent just make life more difficult.
The big problem is the "rule" against skirts to the ankles. That kind of limits what you can buy to "short" skirts. But there are very few skirts sold that cover the knee. This is further made difficult by the fact that the art of wearing a skirt is being lost among non-Jews, leading to more skirts being sold that fit more like jeans than skirts.
So it's tough. And probably, the woman bought the skirt figuring she'd keep it pulled low and it would be ok. And after coming out of the doctor's office it was slightly hitched up in back. A problem, but really nothing to start flaming about.
Come on, people. The world isn't full of antagonistic people out to get you. Everyone is well-meaning, but has lapses. When you see the world that way it will look much nicer.
Many of these comments are inappropriate, but Mr. Moderator, Don't you find Mlevin's comment way too graphic for this blogspot?
Speaking of tznius....There is lots to tznius besides dress and deep down each one of knows that we have alot to improve in tznius if we don't want to be embarrased in front of mashiach. There's no reason to get defensive or bash eachother. This is just a reflection of the generation and every one of us can think of ways to improve if we'd just be honest with ourselves.
Anonymous - Did you actually read my post or did you just got offended because I defined a word? People who defended this note are liars, cheats, demean women, misrepresent torah and follow in the ways of goyim and cowards.
Liars? They claim Pinchas killed people in the desert for wearing short skirts.
Cheats? They cheat frum world by misrepresenting Jewish laws and claiming that Tzniousness is worse than adultery, idolatry and murder.
Demean Women? They force women into uncomfortable clothing all in the name of made up religious laws, so that these women lose sight of the real world instead of becoming strong and self reliant.
Misrepresent Torah? Read above about Pinchas and what is worse untzniousness or murder/adultery/idolatry.
Follow in the way of goyim? Goyim, specifically Christians and Muslims consider all sexual activity sinful. In contrast, Judaism, compares sex to food as one necessity and nothing to be ashamed of. In Talmudic times people did not hide the facts of sex from their children and did not separate men from women on each and every occasion. Now, they think that definition of the word "fornication" is vulgar or too graphic.
Coward? Yes, because they don't use their real name and hide under the cover of the anonymous.
Now, let me defend myself. You call my definition of a word as too vulgar, yet you seem to have no problem with commenters here, who are representatives of the Lakewood community, calling Lakewood's married women whores. Let me define whore for you straight from the dictionary: "a woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse, usually for money; prostitute; harlot; strumpet." You have no problem with accusing married women of cheating on their husbands, you have no problem of them having Momzerim children, you have no problems of claiming that that their husbands are ok with that type of behaivor... But you are offended when I defined a word? YOU ARE A HYPOCRAT!!!
I can see you are a wise and sensitive person. So why do you hide your sensitivity to yiddishkeit behind an angry mask? You wouldn't be getting so defensive and angry if you honestly thought your way of writing is appropriate.
Of course all the name calling and bashing is inappropriate. The only difference here is the more graphic explicit comments. It was nothing personal against you (the constitution provides you with the freedom of press) I was actually expressing my surprise that the comment was not censored since this blogspot claims to be torah oriented.
And still commenting as anonymous. Pathetic.
Firstly, I don't think she was actually dressed like a slut or whore simply because he would not have written the note. I would like to think that he would have known a hopeless cause when he saw one.
That being said I assume he really thought she didn't know and said it with the best of intentions.
In addition to that he didn't say your skirt is too short. He said it isn't covering your knees "in back" meaning that other than that I would think the woman was dressed appropriately. I think that this falls into the same catagory of having a leaf in your hair. You'd want someone to tell you it was there! When I'm walking down the street and I see something like that I would absolutly inform them in a kind way so that they aren't embarrassed just like this young man did.
If my husband came home at the end of the day and said you know this is what i did today I think I'd be proud of him.
As a woman if this happened to me I would not be as disgusted by it as this woman was. I'm sure he said it with the best of intentions and the fact that she was so outraged shows a bit of her true inner self. (perhaps she didn't want to be called on her tznius...) I think that overall the only thing that would bother me is I'd be shocked at the manner in which he wrote it.
The note should have said something like this "I know its not my place but I thought you should know that your skirt is not covering your knees in the back"
The fact that he gave it to her child was brilliant! Most definately not something to look down upon.
We all know that there is a problem with tznius these days. I think that everyone can admit that tznius levels have gone down over recent years. (I do not think the terms sluts and whores is an appropriate term. Its not like they are wearing mini skirts and hooker shoes...) I think that its just a matter of crossing the boundry from "put together and dressed up" to "overdone" Being a woman I can say that is by far the most difficult struggle I have. Each morning when getting dressed I want to look good and make sure I do not cross over the line into provacative. The same way we women cannot understand what we are doing to you men when we are "over the line" you men cannot understand how difficult it is for us to be perfectly tznius.
At this point most of you are thinking that I am a frummie etc. but know this: I do not live or ever will live in lakewood. That lifestyle isn't for me... I do wear make up daily. I get dressed well and I know my fashion. But I can honestly say that I am tzinus and while i'm well dressed i am not provacative. The only person who ever sees that side of me is my husband.
I am not the ideal frum person... and with that I still think the young man who wrote the note was right!
1) there are 2 separate rooms for men and woman so how would he know unless he was looking (even if it was the same room ... if something bothers you so much dont look.) If you are on a train and u see 2 people kissing YOU AVERT YOUR EYES!!!
2) You dont give someone a paper that you wrote on ESPECIALLY if you do not know how to spell, it just leads to your embarrassment. If you were so frum to look at her legs and write a note to communicate with her, be normal and tell her to her face. OH if you are too shy to say it, dont write it and DO NOT GIVE IT TO A CHILD TO GIVE TO HER MOTHER. (That overtips the scale of fakers!!)
3)Its not your business and place to say anything so if you feel the need to write a note (you know, to show off how frum you are), start it like that. Something like..."Hi I know this is not my place to say it nor is my business, but i wrote this note just incase you were unaware of the fact that your dress was not covering your KNEES from the back. Sorry to bother you about this, just trying to be considerate. Have a good day."
Oh and by the way GROW UP cuz eventually you will leave that little box taht you live in and realize there is a real world out there and you need to prepare yourself to handle it. There is no escape and you just have to accept it. EVEN if you are a Rabbi and you need to talk to a childs parent and chas visholom you had to speak to his mother cuz his father was not living... YOU WILL HAVE TO TALK TO A GIRL (sorry to bring this to such a surprise.) Im not Pro a guy and girl talking to one another but this was taken WAY TOO FAR. We are a nation of one and we promote marriage and the idea of woman and men talking and comunicating. obviously there is an extent to this and you should keep your mind on torah and mitzvot. but as a teenager, you should not be talking to girls so that you can focus on hashem. But if you need something from a bakery and the person behind the counter was a woman, there is no issur in talking to her. Here too there is no issur to hand her the paper.
"...and the fact that she was so outraged shows a bit of her true inner self. (perhaps she didn't want to be called on her tznius...)"
Really? How did you come up with such a brilliant deduction?
So if someone comes over to me and says that I'm a shaigetz because I trim my beard and I tell him to mind his #$%@ business, that means I think he's right?!
"So if someone comes over to me and says that I'm a shaigetz because I trim my beard and I tell him to mind his #$%@ business, that means I think he's right?!"
Of course not. No one said she was a shaigetz. No one called her a whore. No one said anything derogative to her at all. This wasn't someone saying "Hey lady, You're a zonah cuz you're skirt is too short.
If someone comes over to you and tells you your yarmulka fell off would you tell him to #$%@ off?
In addition to that you're mixing a gray area and a black area.
A woman showing her knees is wrong
Trimming your beard is you're own business... Its not like you'll be tempting anyone...
Two completely different issues that are not comparable!
Nice going changing the subject. You claimed she "didn't want to be called on her tznius". In other words, you claim that her reaction was an admission of guilt while I told you that her reaction was about the guy's disrespect.
If you have problems with reading comprehension, go back to school.
Clearly you just want to argue so I wont even bother
Wtvr.
On second though I will answer.
I never said she it was an admission of guilt.
All I'm saying is the truth hits home and if it bothered her so much PERHAPS there is a reason it does.
As for the guy I don't think he was disrespectful at all. Again its not like he said Hey woman you're a zonah cuz you're skirt isn't tznius.
But I guess thats a matter of opinion.
Might I also add that you don't know me and I don't know you and you're rather rude for a stranger.
"Go back to school"? You may want to use some manners when communicating with strangers.
wow - this was hysterical. clearly some comments had much thought and insight into them. clearly others didnt. either way - the reading was so captivating that i forgot to watch the tv show i was all excited about so you have all saved a little bit of my neshama. thanks!
I don't have the solution to this problem. The problem is not just tznius, but also some of the comments here that appear somewhat un-tznius..the yelling..the loud complaining. One small suggestion that might help (but not intended to be a total solution). Please try gentleness. Tznius is something that must come from an internal desire to make a kiddush HaShem, however small and unnoticed it might be. (Hashem will notice! just not other people) Therefore one must seek and address the root causes of un-tznius behavior, in a private and gentle way. Any sort of coercion is only a band-aid solution, which is NO SOLUTION at all! So I don't have the answers, but one must encourage one to have good middos, and *then* tznius will follow naturally. This is the more challenging, long term approach.
First- true that "below the knee" and "eight inches above the ankle" leave few lengths to choose from.
I gave up and started buying skirts that end just above the ankle. It's simpler than trying to keep my knees covered because I'm wearing a skirt that is short enough to be considered okay.
And no, I don't think I'll be embarrassed by my tznius when I greet Moshiach. By other things, perhaps. Not by the way I dress.
Thanks anyways, though.
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